AC and AB Calculations

[Chuff_7]

There is all this talk about high AC and AB in some of the other threads and I am after an idea how a normal char (non-pm/rdd or druid/shifter) can get an ac of even 70+ and how a non-ogre/rdd/wm can achieve massive AB's.

For AC do you have to go Dex-base and realistically what is the best a Str-based char can achieve AC-wise?

I'm working my math and find it hard to tally up to these impressive numbers. So here is my take:

Base AC = 10
Start Dex of 20 = +5
10 Stat Increases = +5
10 Epic Greater Dex = +5
Armor Skin = +2
+6 Robes = +6
+6 Tower Shield = +9
Natural AC Amulet = +5 (is there better?? non-earth gen)
Crafted Gloves/Helm/Cloak for Deflection = +5
Dex Stat Buff (i.e from Crafted Boots +Cats Grace = max +12) = +6
Blinding Speed Feat = +4
Spell - Haste = +1

Totals 63 AC is this correct or am I missing something?


With AB

Max AB through 40 levels = 30 AB
Str 18 (non-Orc/Ogre) = +4
10 Stat Increases = +5
10 Epic Great Str = +5 (I think only 7 are possible since Great Str is not available as a bonus feat for anyone??)
WF/EWF/EP = +4
+8 Wpn = +8
Str Stat Buff (i.e. from Crafted Gloves +Bull Str = max +12) = +6

Totals 62 AB is this calculation correct?

I realise RDD would add +4AB, Ogre adds +3AB, and a WM adds +7AB, which means an Ogre RDD would get 69 AB the same as a WM.

Are buffs/songs/div might/shield the only things that can get you the extra AB/AC or are there better gear than what I have listed?

Thanks

[LinuxPup]

You forgot tumble for an extra +8... also Githzerai get a nice +4 AC bonus... the -2 str might sting a bit, but hey its AC. However you'll only get a +1 AC from dex if you're wearing heavy armor... but you get the +8 base heavy armor bonus. Harper Scouts get a AC bonus vs. favored enemies...

Expertise is great if you have high enough AB.

[Bargeld]

A few things stood out to me in the original example:

Most (if not all) natural ac (ammies etc) and deflection ac (gloves/helm/cloak) sources in NS are +4 ac, not +5.
Not all of your ac will stack, it is possible that you will hit the +20 cap from dodge ac with blinding speed and buffs.
Dodge feat provides an additional +1 ac to current or last attacker.
Small stature gives +1 ac
Races (like gith or svirf) give racial ac (as linux noted)

I think the biggest concept that was overlooked was that of 'other ac sources'. Chuff touched on this by using the example of an RDD as a build with high AC. This is because the RDD Class provides an 'other AC source'. These sources are all over the place... the trick is blending them together in order to beat your everyday average AC of 60 (I would say this is the average AC acheivable by most builds, mostly unbuffed, both str or dex based).

From the NWN wiki:

Armor class (AC) is a number representing a creature's ability to avoid being hit in combat. An opponent's attack roll must equal or exceed the target creature's AC to hit it.

AC = 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + dodge bonus + natural armor bonus + deflection bonus + other bonuses

The average, unarmored peasant has an AC of 10.

AC types
armor bonus - provided by armor slot and bracers slot (bracers only; gloves provide deflection)
shield bonus - provided by shield slot
dodge bonus - provided by boots slot
natural armor bonus - provided by amulet slot
deflection bonus - provided by all other inventory slots
Only dodge bonuses stack, up to a maximum of +20. For all other types of bonus, the single highest modifier is applied.

Armor class guide
As above, there are several types of armor class in Neverwinter Nights; some will work together (i.e., stack) and some will not. Knowing what stacks and what doesn't can often mean the difference between useful equipment and useless equipment.

Below are 6 AC categories; the 5 that NWN uses (natural, armor, shield, deflection, dodge), and one extra "other" category to hold the bonuses that do not fit into the 5 base categories. All these categories will stack together, and ultimately sum together to form a character's total AC.

Sources of natural AC
These will not stack with each other; the highest one is used.

item: amulet AC bonus (+1-20)
feat: epic spell: epic mage armor (+5)
spell: mage armor (+1)
spell: barkskin (+3-5)
spell: shadow shield (+5)

Sources of armor AC
These will not stack with each other; the highest one is used.

item: armor AC bonus (+1-20)
item: bracer AC bonus (+1-20) (same item slot as gloves)
feat: epic spell: epic mage armor (+5)
spell: mage armor (+1)
spell: magic vestment (+1-5)

Sources of shield AC
These will not stack with each other; the highest one is used.

item: shield AC bonus (+1-20)
spell: magic vestment (+1-5)

Sources of deflection AC
These will not stack with each other; the highest one is used.

item: glove AC bonus (+1-20) (same item slot as bracers)
item: ring AC bonus (+1-20)
item: belt AC bonus (+1-20)
item: helmet AC bonus (+1-20)
item: cloak AC bonus (+1-20)
item: weapon AC bonus (+1-20)
item: dusty rose ioun stone (+1)
feat: epic spell: epic mage armor (+5)
spell: shield (+4)
spell: mage armor (+1)
spell: shield of faith (+2-5)
spell: protection from alignment (+2 versus selected alignment)
spell: aura versus alignment (+4 versus selected alignment)
spell: magic circle against alignment (+2 versus selected alignment)

Sources of dodge AC
These will stack with each other, but is limited to a +20 maximum dodge bonus.

item: boots AC bonus (+1-20)
feat: Bard Song (+2-7)
feat: Battle Training vs. Giants (+4 against giant-type enemies)
feat: mobility (+4 against attacks of opportunity)
feat: shadow evade (+1-4)
feat: Divine Shield (+1-20)
feat: defensive stance (+4)
spell: haste (+4)
spell: mage armor (+1)
spell: epic spell: epic mage armor (+5)
spell: undeath's eternal foe (+4)
All dodge AC is lost when caught flat-footed (even if the character has the uncanny dodge feat).

Other sources of AC
These are all individual sources, and stack together with no restrictions.

ability: dexterity (+1-122, but limited by the armor's maximum dexterity bonus) *
item: armor base (+1-8)
item: shield base (+1-3)
feat: Armor Skin (+2)
feat: dodge (+1 against current target or last attacker) *
feat: Bone Skin (+2-16)
feat: small stature (+1, or more generally the size modifier)
feat: Monk AC Bonus from wisdom (+1-122)
feat: monk AC bonus from level progression (+1-8)
feat: Draconic Armor (+1-8)
feat: expertise/improved expertise (+5/+10)
skill: tumble (+1-8) *
spell: Tenser's transformation (+4)
* The dexterity bonus to AC, dodge, and tumble AC benefits are lost when caught flat-footed, but the uncanny dodge and defensive awareness feats allow the dexterity bonus to be retained.

[Bargeld]

One more thing I would like to add is that AC is not the defining factor of whether you will get hit or not. The best way that I have seen to not get hit is to 'layer' your types of protection. Even the monk/rdd/paladin (not really possible here) with his 75 ac will get tore up by your average big-crit-range weapon and a 55 ab. But imagine having all the following to go thru before you get hit:

Epic dodge - completely negates the first successful attack in a round (this is great when you are immobalized/flat footed)
Concealment - improved invis, mage armor, darkness, racial abilities, self concealment feat - provide up to 50% of just missing without an attack roll even being rolled (essentially negating 50% of the damage you would take)
Parry - this is an odd skill, i haven't really figured this one out 100%
Defensive roll - allows for a save for 1/2 damage on any killing blow (this is kinda useless, and you won't actually see it kick in until one attack previous to your death, and making a save vs 120 damage isn't realistic.)

One other thing to consider is damage reduction. There are a good amount of DR sources out there, providing 60+ DR for a specifically designed build. Also note that this goes both ways... a monk *cough, laufer* with the above 4 abilities and maxed out dex/ 16 natural wisdom (24 with gear) and blinding speed, will hit a self buffed 69 AC... with concealment and ED. But the only DR he has is from the 1 specific weapon type that his robes are for (and natural monk DR of like 5). And you can't change armor once the battle has started. Those crits that do manage to break through all of the above layers hit HARD. And if something removes your ac (like being stunned/flatfooted) then you are just a punching bag taking full damage. having a 60 ac while flatfooted, with a 60 DR would be much better than 75 ac and 25 DR (in this situation).

[Chuff_7]

Thanks Linux and Bargeld. Completely forgot about tumble .

Looking at the WIKI, Epic Mage Armor says "The caster gets a +20 armor class bonus (+5 Armor Enhancement, +5 Deflection, +5 Dodge, +5 Natural). This spell is not affected by armor casting penalties, nor can it be interrupted. This spell cannot be dispelled."

I take it that means pretty much all you're going to get from this is the +5 Dodge so long as you have not hit the +20 Dodge AC. That about right?

Githzerai get a nice +4 AC bonus ... Harper Scouts get a AC bonus vs. favored enemies

Do both of these AC Bonuses, and indeed any racial AC bonus, become part of the +20 Dodge AC?

Thanks for the information explains alot!

[VagaStorm]

Thanks Linux and Bargeld. Completely forgot about tumble .

Looking at the WIKI, Epic Mage Armor says "The caster gets a +20 armor class bonus (+5 Armor Enhancement, +5 Deflection, +5 Dodge, +5 Natural). This spell is not affected by armor casting penalties, nor can it be interrupted. This spell cannot be dispelled."

I take it that means pretty much all you're going to get from this is the +5 Dodge so long as you have not hit the +20 Dodge AC. That about right?

Githzerai get a nice +4 AC bonus ... Harper Scouts get a AC bonus vs. favored enemies

Do both of these AC Bonuses, and indeed any racial AC bonus, become part of the +20 Dodge AC?

Thanks for the information explains alot!

Githzerai dos count vs the limit, and there is a few builds that can easily hit the +20 limit, but mainly with divine shield, but even with out it, you can come close(boots5+bard5+blindingspeed4+gith4 = +18 dodge). tumble ac dos not count toward that limit I belive, not sure about the harper scout tho.

[Fatzo]

hehehe a well-structured thread !

very nicley done ! will hopefully curb frustrations of NWN players for many years to come !

[Heeza]

From a Noobs perspective this is excellent info. Thanks to everyone who posted.

[Korr]

Yes Chuff to your +5 dodge question. One of the MAJOR bonuses of Epic Mage Armor is you get the +5 deflection (can wear any gloves/helmet/cloak you want without losing AC) +5 natural (can wear any amulet without lowering AC) The Armor enahcenment isnt all that grand though.


// Sorry quick edit, if anyone is every confused on anything like this I have been playing D&D for the better part of my entire life (played first time when I was about 10 and I am 24 now). I am always more than willing to help with questions... just dont ask me to build a character for you (Trust me you wont like the character because its not yours)

[Amoenotep]

build me a shifter with 90+ac in any form




oh wait....nm..i already have one

[Fatzo]

build me a shifter with 90+ac in any form




oh wait....nm..i already have one

*grabs the nerf bat*

*grins*

[Amoenotep]

lol..its been nerfed 3 times...just like every other shifter..its even monky shifter so it got that pesky -wis mod to shifted ac stuff and i can still hit 80+ac in a few forms.


btw...it was the 5th design of its kind on ns4

[Lokey]

Yes Chuff to your +5 dodge question. One of the MAJOR bonuses of Epic Mage Armor is you get the +5 deflection (can wear any gloves/helmet/cloak you want without losing AC) +5 natural (can wear any amulet without lowering AC) The Armor enahcenment isnt all that grand though.


// Sorry quick edit, if anyone is every confused on anything like this I have been playing D&D for the better part of my entire life (played first time when I was about 10 and I am 24 now). I am always more than willing to help with questions... just dont ask me to build a character for you (Trust me you wont like the character because its not yours)

I thought I made mage armor and epic mage armor both armor bonuses? (+4 and +10ish?)

[Brutalix]

Nice read! I love finding topics like this that explain everything in detail. How does AB effect those that use dex as their main stat though?

[Amoenotep]

use a dex based lighter weapon you thread necro