spell nerfs (it continues)

Dallas17 · Post by **Dallas17** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:07 pm

*sigh* everytime i log in, another spell is useless that my sorcerer has to un-learn.. this time it was bigbies forceful hand. now granted there originally was no way to save this spell before now without epic levels (by then 38 str is quite easy to have) but now i notice almost a 100% failed bullrush on any guard i use it on, or high STR PC for that matter... considering this spells duration is 1 round/4 levels, and we cannot cast twice a round.. i really don't see why this nerf was done, it seems that all casters in NS4 are supposed to do is blast things and use death magic.. there are no disable mages in NS4... there really arn't any dispell mages either, i have mord, i tested it. it seems the breach function of it is messed up. allow me to just tell people how mord SHOULD work

breachs 6 of the following spells:

any elemental shield
any soak spell
and mantle
shadow shield
elemental protection spells
mind blank/protection from spells/spell resistance
protection from alignment spells

there is a certain order of priority in all this, but any of those spells can be breached by a greater breach, lesser breach or mord, atleast they SHOULD in NWN, i've never found this to be needing fixing, it's quite balancing in that mages DO have a weakness.

now the second part of the spell is a dispell at caster level, it should cap at +20, but honestly if we did that, we'd never dispell anyone that reached epic. so imo the cap should be removed from this spell, not sure if it has or not as i'm only 19.

3rd part, -10 SR (great for those subraces with spell resistance)

it's a very powerful spell, but it DOES cost a level 9 spot.

more than anything i wish the dev team posted thier spell changes so that people would know what they're spells ACTUALLY do, because normally people look at the description, but sadly most NS4 spells are edited... another nerf that bugs me is shadow shield.. 1 turn a level it seems... which basically means i know i won't be using it. over nerfed, like many i've seen.

don't design spells under the impression that mages will rest every 3 minuites.. because i hate resting, i'm used to playing a mage that goes 30 RL minuties before resting, and is forced to. so i don't take my spells lightly, i use only when needed as any mage should. however here it seems i'm supposed to blow my entire load on every encouter we come across :/

Billiard · Post by **Billiard** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:15 pm

Well, spell will probably continue to be tweaked thoughout the beta. Once the beta is over and things are set I would hope to see a list of the NS4 specific changes. Until then it's a lot of documentation for a moving target.

Psycho Dordt · Post by **Psycho Dordt** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:28 pm

other spells souped up:
All Pets, yes they are buffed in power but last Xtremely short
lesser spell breach, it has not breached a single spell yet

wail of the banshee, if your death your immume, and if you make save your death, there is nothing like that on IMplosion.

Harm is useless now, in PnP there is a cap of 150 dmg on it, but remember in NwN and NS4 mobs have way MORE HP

clerics almost have BETTER magic than mages now, with more HP and MORE AC, x/- and y% resists

it seems that all a mages DISABLING spells are hit with teh NErf bat again and again and again, while that is what mages are. almost all a mage defensive spells are nerfed like hell, as are most disabling spells, and now most mobs are getting higher saves with updates, so that in a short time inly Isaacs and Ice storm will have use...................................
what will be next all mobs have +5 weapons so defensive Buffs will become usless also?????????

if you want a server with only Melee clerics/bards say so i'll go to an other server.

Rokker7 · Post by **Rokker7** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:44 pm

just like ns3, wait for people to build their characters and they will un-nerf the spells. being a sorc player i know its hard to accept but come on. other classes need items, sorcs just need exp. the devs have to be thinking of the pvp and the pve at the same time, lets cut em some slack and just accept it.

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:50 pm

One place where i'd be very careful about nerfing/buffing is spells that are crossed between classes. For example, elemental resists and stuff like that that rangers and paladins get. They're usually extremely useful for the classes and are a part of the class as a benefit for losing things like fighter feats or whatever. The problem with buffing them is that these classes will get overpowered(as my ranger was when he got his first lvl3 summon at around lvl7). However, nerfing them will also hurt these classes much as well, so that's why, imo, they should be given a little more attention than other pure caster spells. It's important to keep mages balanced as well, but for example, losing one disabling spell shouldn't ruin the class(as hopefully most spells will be balanced and useful) while something like losing a resist elements or weapon dmg buff for rangers or paladins could really hurt.
So while i support keeping mage spells pretty even in terms with other spells of the same level(so there's always a choice that determines what the mage wants), screwing with some of our spells can be like screwing with a whole spell type, and as the first poster noticed, it really really hurts the class.

Post by **Lokey** » Wed May 12, 2004 8:54 pm

Bug report with specifics or wait 6 months until I have a character that can cast Mord's

Lesser dispel AFAIK follows the description exactly. If you want it to strip everything from a level 60 caster, play a mod with Bio's code.

Mord's: Work in progress? Cast directly on a target, it will strip 6 seperate buffs of the shield/mantle/stoneskin variety highest spell level to lowest (the spell breach part of the spell) and attempt dispel of area of effects and dispel of one protection on every object within 10 m.

Cast as an AoE, will do a dispel check attempt two spell effects on everything in a 10 meter radius except the caster plus AoEs, without a cap on dispel level.

Spell focus Abjuration helps in dispel attempts as well. (+2 norm, +4 greater, +6 epic)

Was pretty sure it was solid

-----

The technical problem is that the spell information is very hard to come by. 1.63 should help, but you'd like a fix in less than 6 weeks I suppose.

My thought is that harder to dispel magical buffs would play more towards the player that doesn't rest after every encounter myself. As always, suggestions are welcome.

True, we copped out on the list of spell tweaks:

-Acid Arrow: optimized code
-Acid Fog: empower works better than normal version now
...and on and on through the 463 spells we've customized

Dallas17 · Post by **Dallas17** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:51 pm

i was under the impression mord 'should' attempt to dispell anything after it's breach effects have taken place, not just 1 spell.. this is really the spell that makes the mage able to truely fight the caster cleric easily in casting, which he should. i think some of the things on the breach list you may have missed (because bioware never mentioned it) are mind blank, spell resistance, and protection from spells..lesser mindblank too, not sure what others arn't on the breach list, but i noticed it doesn't strip these as it should..

my suggestions as far as balancing dispells at epic levels (let's face it, dispells currently are mostly for a 1-20 enviroment) is that lesser, regular and greater dispell all work instead at a percentage of your level, instead of a flat cap.

25%/50%/75%/100%...

so that a level 24 cleric say with a focus in abjuration will have a dispell check of 20 (24*.75 +2 = 20) mord ofcourse would be 100%, dispell 50%, 25% for lesser.. this is the system they use on bastions and it seems to work well in thier epic enviroment. it's not that great for non-epic however, so perhaps a check to see which would be better for the caster, straight cap, or percentage..

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:07 am

i know i'm not the smartest guy around, but for the life of me i can't figure out why harm got nerfed. sure it takes the HP of ur enemy down to the extreme, i'm not really sure it should be nerfed. all clerics get the 2 sided coin divine or negative, for every divine healing spell u get ie: cure moderate wounds u get the opposite available ie: inflict moderate wounds. all the spell lvls have this in common until u get to heal/harm. heal gets to remain exactly the same while harm gets knocked to 10pts/lvl up to 150. i'm not usually one to complain but why should i get a full on heal if i can't cast its exact opposite a full on harm? druids still get to wop u with a drown that does 90% of ur HP as damage and wizzy/sorc get a whole lot of death spells. if u really think about it was it productive and balancing to take that down and leave the rest the same? i know i have trouble with the spells sometimes because u have to make a ranged touch attack and my ab isn't as high as i would really like to attack. i don't know, maybe its best to make the cleric a summoner/slayer.

Psycho Dordt · Post by **Psycho Dordt** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:03 am

IMO mord should strip 6 defenses aply a -10 to SR AND attempts to dispell ALL spells on the target with no lvl cap. If the Area version is used let it strip 2 defenses, dispell one spell, and lower sr by 10
(in PnP it auto dispells ALL spells in the area, no questions asked and all in the area of effect must make will saves for each item they wear or they are permanently disjoined, )

i do not thisk the SR spell should be breached my mord, there should be a dispell chance, and of cource the -10 to SR should aply

garrykasparov · Post by **garrykasparov** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:36 am

Ugh...allowing an epic abj focused lvl x mage an 80% chance to dispel every single buff on a lvl x cleric would seem to me a bit unbalanced.

EvilIguana966 · Post by **EvilIguana966** » Thu May 13, 2004 9:21 am

deathdearler1 wrote:i know i'm not the smartest guy around, but for the life of me i can't figure out why harm got nerfed. sure it takes the HP of ur enemy down to the extreme, i'm not really sure it should be nerfed. all clerics get the 2 sided coin divine or negative, for every divine healing spell u get ie: cure moderate wounds u get the opposite available ie: inflict moderate wounds. all the spell lvls have this in common until u get to heal/harm. heal gets to remain exactly the same while harm gets knocked to 10pts/lvl up to 150. i'm not usually one to complain but why should i get a full on heal if i can't cast its exact opposite a full on harm? druids still get to wop u with a drown that does 90% of ur HP as damage and wizzy/sorc get a whole lot of death spells. if u really think about it was it productive and balancing to take that down and leave the rest the same? i know i have trouble with the spells sometimes because u have to make a ranged touch attack and my ab isn't as high as i would really like to attack. i don't know, maybe its best to make the cleric a summoner/slayer.

Because drown has a resist AND does less damage. Harm had no resist and was really really easy to hit with. Drown also doesnt work on constructs, which harm does, or on undead, which clerics can hit with heal instead.

Kelin · Post by **Kelin** » Thu May 13, 2004 10:08 am

Mmmmm well 2 resons to change bio's Harm and Bigby Forcefull Hand:

Harm: EXTREMELY easy to hit EVERYTHING with the touch but monks, no save, no resist, nothing, all hps out but 1d6. ummm. Naaaaaa why nerf it.
Oh, and clerics have mass heal too! Let's give them MASS HARM! YAY!

Bigby Forcefull Hand: teorically a mind effect, but bugged as hell. First, the knockdown works even if mind immune. And in Bio version it lasts an age or two, leaving the guy there defenseless and ready to die. Second, EVERYTHING with less than 30 strenght will fail the STR check all the time and be knocked down endlessly. This means ANY dex build is screwed.
My tank had 52 STR and still that damn hand was knocking him down sometimes (like 15-20% of times). I think that the knockdown should last only 1 round and then you are dazed, and don't think it should work on mind immune stuff (like a lvl 20 monk). Still, Bio version isn't a spell, is almost an exploit, 'cause there isn't really a way to stop it. Well, but being mind AND knockdown immune.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Thu May 13, 2004 11:02 am

Does spell focus: abjuration increase your roll vs dispel attempts against your spells from other mages?

Dallas17 · Post by **Dallas17** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:31 pm

Kirg · Post by **Kirg** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:51 pm

Dallas17 wrote:SNIP

more than anything i wish the dev team posted thier spell changes so that people would know what they're spells ACTUALLY do, because normally people look at the description, but sadly most NS4 spells are edited... another nerf that bugs me is shadow shield.. 1 turn a level it seems... which basically means i know i won't be using it. over nerfed, like many i've seen.

SNIP

Ever read the description of shadow shield? Well I dont think it was nerfed at all...

And I dont know what all the problems with mages vs clerics is. Im using a wizard and did have two encounters with high lvl clerics lately. I had a good chance and with luck survived both, while my opponents didnt.
The last player that killed me was another wizard spawning 4 unleashed balors *yuck* and my shadow shield going out hehe.

BR

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spell nerfs (it continues)

spell nerfs (it continues)

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