General balancing problems

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Kelin
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General balancing problems

Post by Kelin »

I have been around the mod for a wile even if i play only on weekends, i reached lvl 15, not too much, not too few, and i think that now i can give some feedback on what i saw so far. And basically what i saw so far i complete lack of balance between casters and not caster classes. Or at least for what regards fighters. There is really big lack of balance: it is due to NWN itself, it's right, but the structure of NS4 and the way characters progress only make this lack bigger. The choice to run a low magic server isn't necessairly wrong or bad, but this must be made balancing caster classes too. For example, if a fighter can't get a +5 weapon 'till epic levels, casters shouldn't be able to cast soaking spells like stoneskin untill a certain level. Same, if a fighter, that should be the most versatile and complete melee class, can't get that +5 weapon 'till a certain level, cleric spells shouldn't give +5 enanche to item untill they reach that level. What is worst is that NS4 is based upon competition between factions. This means free pvp. Free pvp means that fights between characters can happen. But what possibilities has a fighter against a cleric or a wizard/sorceror? Fighter life depends on gear. Gear that miss on Neversummer so far. And the forced level restriction for items doesn't help: for example i managed to get lvl 13 gear at lvl 11 alone, or lvl 16 at lvl 14 still alone, but i can't use. I can't use a +2d6 damage +3 keen weapon 'till i reach level 16, but a lvl 16 caster has all the spells he need to kill me in any way he likes.
Another thing that really screws up fighter is the stupidly high damage immunity on gear. I mean, 5/ and 10/ damage resistance can be nice, but at level 13 for example you can get 40% (40%!!!!) immunity to slash or bludge, other than the res. How is a tank supposed to damage anything with the crappy gear he has? Consider for example a level 13 tank with emanched mithril [censored] sword, 21 base +4 from item strenght, weapon specialization on [censored]. So it is 1d10 + 9 +1d10 +2 damage, so 2d10 +11. let's say on an average roll 22 damage. 40% of 22 is 9 damage (well ok 8,8 but i suppose it's rounded up). And then 10 slash resist, so in the end the fighter has 19 of his dmg resisted. this leaves oh my! 3 damage! so much it could kill a lvl 1 elven wizard with 6 base con. Now let's see the case of a level 13 cleric. He casts greater magic weapon and gets a +4 weapon. He casts darkfire and gets his +10 fire dmg. He buffs and gets additional damage. He does like 5 times the fighter damage on a normal hit. I seriously think that ALL the imunity from items AND mobs should be removed. Or at least seriously tuned down. It makes pointless to be any class that rely on physical damage to kill something. And now, don't tell me to party up with a cleric. I always ask to party, but usually no one wants. Why? Well, why they should party with a fighter that leechs their xp wile offering lower damage than them or their summons?
Now, i think that things change when going epic and i sense that epic gear makes up for the lacks of fighter at epic levels. Or maybe not, 'cause i constantly see the immunities on items grow up. Lvl 16 imbued has 25% immunity on each piece, so 50% immunity with armor and shield. And even if epic weapons have lots of elemental and energy damage, you will still be unable to do physical damage, and if fighting with a planar caster (and most of the clerics i saw are aasimars, so...) the elemental dmg isn't so much effective. And what is a char's immunity at lvl 40? If it keeps progressing like this, a lvl 40 char gets 100% bludge slash pierce immunity? And mobs too?
I really hope that things will change, we are in a beta and there is still much to work on, i am aware of that, but i think that balance is one of the first things. To start with i think that immunities REALLY have to be removed from all items. A 20% slash immunity bonus could be acceptable for epic gear around level 30, but for a lvl 13 char is way too much. And there is worst, for example mobs like the high level giants that have 30% immunity to everything and 10 slash and bludge and 5 piercing resistance. All chars that rely on melee this way are sadly useless, wile casters still don't have any problems 'cause they still keep their spells. Really few casters i met were willing to party up, they didn't have any need to do 'cause they were far more powerfull that the stupid tank that was asking them to party, even if they were lower level. And without gear is impossible or nearly impossible to resist a necromancer wizard weil of banshee, at least if you aren't a paladin/cot.
I am of the idea that if you want to do a facrion war based mod the first thing needed is balance between classes. Make every class worth something at any level. Saying that at lvl 40 fighter are good 'cause they have good gear and stuff isn't an excuse to make their life impossible for all the other 38 levels :P
I am aware that this is an open topic that has been widely discussed but i wanted to toss in my 2 cents :twisted:
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Post by XxDkCobraxX »

[rant]

seriously, this will never be a resolved issue for some people...

mages were not supposed to be completely even with fighters, or vice versa. there are advantages and disadvantages to each class. just because your fighter cant do everything a mage can do doesnt mean jack squat: make a mage for heavens sake!

this whole "everything has to be completely even because if its not you are discriminating" is a load of horse manure. deal with it, if you cannot beat them then join them.

[/rant]
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Post by Kelin »

I don't think that a server should be populated only by sorcerors, wizards, and clerics 'cause all the other classes aren't worth to be picked honestly.
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Post by XxDkCobraxX »

people have to get out of this ns3 mindset! just because a character you have cannot kill everything anywhere at all times doesnt mean that character is not worth playing. ever hear of playing a character just to have fun? believe it or not, it happens!!!

my druid is not very powerful. cant do everything on his own, but thats COOL because it means i party with other cool people and go have fun as a group. i cant remember the last time i had to do that on ns3 =/

why dont you focus on your teamwork and exploring and testing rather than what you can or cannot solo or PvP. if your guy sucks at PvP vs stoneskin or premonition, then dont PvP man, run away! life is tough, no one said a mage was ever going to play fair and say "oh, you cant hit me when i have stoneskin? my bad, let me drop my defenses that are designed to thwart the dumb fighter type."
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Post by Chimaira »

XxDkCobraxX wrote:people have to get out of this ns3 mindset! just because a character you have cannot kill everything anywhere at all times doesnt mean that character is not worth playing. ever hear of playing a character just to have fun? believe it or not, it happens!!!

my druid is not very powerful. cant do everything on his own, but thats COOL because it means i party with other cool people and go have fun as a group. i cant remember the last time i had to do that on ns3 =/

why dont you focus on your teamwork and exploring and testing rather than what you can or cannot solo or PvP. if your guy sucks at PvP vs stoneskin or premonition, then dont PvP man, run away! life is tough, no one said a mage was ever going to play fair and say "oh, you cant hit me when i have stoneskin? my bad, let me drop my defenses that are designed to thwart the dumb fighter type."
Hmmm....
I was thinking about replying seriously...but really...you make it seem like its all sarcasm, if it is: good. If it isnt: Sad.

Kelin: Many people realized this and made posts about it, I agree on removing the immunity and resistances on gear, but with people posting messages like dkcobra's there is little point in voicing your oppinion or proposing what would be good for balance since these mindless drones will just ignore it and say: "PvP between fighters and mages isnt supposed to be balanced". It really doesnt mean what you put in your post, as soon as it says something about casters being too strong or fighters being too weak youll get that standard line smacked in your face wheter you like it or not.

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Post by Souldin »

seriously, in any other MMORPG i have played any character can duel another. Maybe like a more of an advantage because they are a healer or something but that's just one class...I don't think that all the classes will ever be equal because of the default scripts in the classes and (i don't know anything about changes in the classes script wise that you can make) the devs just don't want to or can't implement anything that will even it out. I figure that's just how NWN is. :/ sucks.

Saying that "tanks and missle suck, just play as a caster" is probubly the truth right now on NS4, but Kelin was just asking for a little help on equality.
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Post by XxDkCobraxX »

my posts are probably unwarrentedly harsh, but really stop crying about it. this just happened to be the post that set me off. equality of the classes is a fools dream....

i never said that you shouldnt play as the classes you want, but if the classes you want to play cannot do the things you want, then maybe instead of insisting the system is wrong try adapting to the system?
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Post by Knightwing4 »

hey umm in case you didn't realize it, the soaks only soak up 10*caster lvl before dieing, as a pure caster, i die 24/7 to anyone with KD, cuz once they KD i'm on the ground not casting, and they KD again, so i'm back on the floor, again, again, dead.

OR just keep on healing till my good spells are out

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Post by Billiard »

I have made both casters and non-casters. Yes casters can be tough, but buffs do wear off and can be dispelled. Once that happens they are fair game. One KD is usually all it takes to kill a mage caster as well, and with their low AC they are usually easy to hit. Also, you can always sneak up on a caster and get them before they buff. In addition, several races give spell resistance - add that to decent saves and casters have a hard time hurting you. Is there imbalance at some levels? Sure, it is impossible for all classes to be balanced at all levels - a mage below like level 9 will probably be easy game for fighter types. It's not until they can get decent buffs that they get tougher - and these buffs can be dealt with (monsters do it all the time).

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Post by Daltian »

What are you? Lvl 3 wiz? A tank can kill a wiz up to lvl 9 maybe. After that, only in dreams, and some very lucky case. A tank killing a caster buffed only with improved invis and premonition is really a dream. The second he is up, and he will get up soon, you die!
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Post by Daltian »

Low AC, spell resistance saving from your spells? What caster were you playing? Harper scout?
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Post by LoZen »

Man, yet another post about the same thing. As far as I'm concerned, the only class that should even been having an issue with this is WM. A pure fighter should be able to specialize in at least two diferent types of weopons. When you run up against something with resistance/immunity, change your weapon!. It works, I've tried it :)

Like I said, if you're a WM (or someone who only uses 1 type of weapon) then there are going to be things that you won't be able to damage. That's the price you pay for being insanely proficient with one weapon. It's the trade-off thing. Stoneskin is another story, but it's not permanent and can be dispelled. And why not team up with that cleric? Have him give you the same buffs he has (bless, aid, GMW, Darkfire, whatever) and you'll be doing as much or more damage than he is. When they run out, rest and repeat, and continue slaughtering everything in your path :twisted:

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Post by Æ »

I totally agree with you Kelin.

I didn't read any of the responses after Rent's because I'm sure they're all just ranting about dealing with it, flaming you and otherwise forgetting that this is a beta test and the purpose is player feedback.

All we can do is offer our suggestions and hope it changes things, and if things don't change, we can get bored and leave for other servers (thinking of giving Trinity a shot.)

Furthermore, I repeat, players, DM's and Dev's in NS4 really need to go into some of the tactical servers like NWTactics and Ancient Rage, and other servrers in the Arena group, and learn a few things. One thing you'll see first off is no resistances or immunities. Secondly you'll see a special effort made to balance the classes... even though they're working as a team, or party, each player needs to be able to contribute comparable strength to the team to be useful -- a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Last thing I will mention (although there's alot more to learn from these servers) is you'll always see special gear for warrior classes (who, as much as you may want to deny it, will always to some degree depend on this gear) and/or special gear for pure classes (who are now at a disadvantage with the existance of prestige classes, but shouldn't be) to encourage the existance of single-class specialty characters that can focus on their strength and provide the most their class has to offer to the team.
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Post by Billiard »

Daltian wrote:What are you? Lvl 3 wiz? A tank can kill a wiz up to lvl 9 maybe. After that, only in dreams, and some very lucky case. A tank killing a caster buffed only with improved invis and premonition is really a dream. The second he is up, and he will get up soon, you die!
You just need to change your tactics. Get em before he's buffed or after it's worn off. Get em unawares by being sneaky. Try using a group. Can you wade into a battle playing to the opponents strengths? No - that's just stupid. Does this mean you need to tweak your build to take this stuff into account? Yes. Old NS3 builds that people are trying won't work. Try a build - if it works stick with it. If not, try again. I have made mage and a dozen different melee builds. I have finally come across a couple combos that I think are pretty decent. It's hard to start over each time, but you learn and get better. Just like it was in NS3 before people kind of knew all the max builds.

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Post by mordraneth »

I'm sure that many people know (though some may not) that if you take two weapon focuses then with 13 levels in wm you can take a 2nd weapon of choice (it's in the feats list) and a 3rd at 16 and so on, though you must have focus in these other weapons before you can choose them.

Yes, this does soak up a lot of feats if you want imp crit, sup wep focus etc but it does allow the wm to have a bit more versatility. I think you can also get away with just 2 if you take something like morningstar which does slash/piercing? and warhammer or mace etc for bludgeoning.

Not a fix, but as was pointed out, there are ways to get around these issues. Alot of it is knowing the important little things about a class which DON'T come in the manual.

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