Please (it getting old)

de_slider · Post by **de_slider** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:37 pm

I'm getting tired of hearing "suggestions" on how to "fix" a character's ability because some other character can't get around that ability. I see there is now suggestions coming up about changing a SD HiPs ability with timers and tokens. You all sound like that fool pally build that came running into Sleeth as a level 37 and decided to test out his new Tokens and Abilities on 4 level 40 -Slaves- solo. Back onto the forums he came, complained again about NS4 how tough it was and quit.

There was tons of crying at one time about PM's. So they got "adjusted/nerfed" made vulnerable to fire and divine damage and giving a good Pally the upper hand in a one on one confrontation. Yet with a non Pally build fighter I have beaten PM's one on one (no time stop used), and with having ability to do fire or divine damage. Which left me wondering what all the crying was about.

Then the crying started about "how fast monks are"... and on and on it goes.

All this crying generally came from people who were constantly getting defeated by a particular build. They refuse to play and build anything but their main character a Gnome, barbarian/wm/rogue (rogue for UMD) that has sucky SR and no Spot or Listen and who think they are powerful because they have Taunt skill.

All these "suggestions" for toning down a particular build type, skill or ability does nothing but hurt the solo PvM player. As far as PvP goes, you don't like an ability that beats you, build a counter to it.

As far as the HiPs bug crash goes. That's on you. The server doesn't crash your system does. I have figured out and fix my HiPs crashing. I would crash about every second time a SD would use HiPs. Now I might crash once in a blue moon after several encounters with SD's. I took the time to make changes to my PC graphics setting, game settings, sound settings, updated drivers on my video card, sound card, motherboard and bios. Followed advice posted but various Fx 3rd party fixes. I sort out resources on the web to see what I could change/shut down in the background services of my PC. As far as I am concerned the HiPs bug is no more with my system.

So take the time and "FIX" your own PC, don't be asking dev to make changes to any build because YOU keep crashing.

As far as SD's goes, I have pc's that have spot or listen and see HiPsters 90 to 100% of the time depending on their ability.. In fact with the changes to True Seeing.. with spell focus and having the right caster with me it will pump my spot to 130.. oh and please add in more spot and listen gear need to get the possible 130 spot even higher... try and HiPs your way around that..

There are various "shift" builds with Dragon Type True seeing as well as various summons with Dragon Type True Seeing that can be called on to give SD's a run for their money.

I have invested time as did many other players, in making builds to suite our moods, various zone/party challenges and PvP confrontations. I have archers that counter a SD monk build, I have BG to counter Pally, I have Fighters to counter PM's and Barbarians, I have Bard to counter SD's, I have SD's to counter fighters, I have monks that can't hit a thing, but can't be caught either because of their speed. I have builds and counter builds as do many. In one on one PvP sometimes they win other times they lose, in party PvP (Raids or Defence) they win a lot more because of support from the other PC in part.

Stop trying to make your build the "Unbeatable Foe" by having dev make changes to other builds. Get off your butt and make counters. It's as simple as that. There never will be the ONE BUILD BEATS ALL so give up on that idea.

You don't like getting beaten by SD's using HiPs, build a spotting or listening PC. But then expect to get your butt kicked by some other build. That's the way NS4 has been designed and I personally Love It. Most builds are good enough to PvM solo lots and for PvP you definitely need to be in party.

I don't have super builds nor do I expect I ever will. I have some pretty good builds, based on listening to voices of experience/guidance from others. Most of them can hold their own. Some builds.... lets just say that I respawn lots too. But that's the name of the game.

Alkapwn · Post by **Alkapwn** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:14 pm

Well said as always D'! It's not about what you play It's how you play it!
I think the game mechanics are very well thought out by our devs and some builds may seem overpowered but in there is ALWAYS a counter build. Thats why most of us have been around so long. It takes dedecation to learn all the ins and outs of NS4 and the cryers are just lazy in my opinion. If there's a build you think you can't beat its your fault for not trying hard enough to find an answer NOT the game.

burrahobbit · Post by **burrahobbit** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:10 pm

The only problem i see with the numerous hips chars out there is that even if i can see them, they spam hide/unhide so fast (clearing the combat que) that i cant attack them anyway.

5 Possible Solutions-

1) Make a better hipser and hide from them

2) Get your timing right with a pure fighter or barb, stun/KD, followed by a disarm. Once they have dropped about 10 death bites on the ground they will start to ask themselves - is it really worth this?
3) Build the ultimate reflex/initiative char and get the first attack off, mix this with epic dodge and avoid their atk completely.
4) Change the way it affects counter attacking chars combat cue.
5) Ignore the complainers, they will move on to something else when hips chars suck.

Course thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.

golem · Post by **golem** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:48 pm

well i just respounded to Oni's stupid post about Sds and i didnt read all of ur post D but i agree with u there is a build to counter everything just sometimes its harder but u can do it

Lorkar1 · Post by **Lorkar1** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:56 pm

golem wrote:well i just respounded to Oni's stupid post about Sds and i didnt read all of ur post D but i agree with u there is a build to counter everything just sometimes its harder but u can do it

Before you start calling other peoples posts stupid, maybe you should check your own work so you don't come off sounding like an idiot.

Valhor · Post by **Valhor** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:12 am

For once* I agree with De_Slider - this is a rare occasion indeed.

cRaZy8or5e · Post by **cRaZy8or5e** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 am

I always agree with DE, so this time . . . no just kidding, yeah get over it. HiPSers are jus frustrating, trust me I know

. The don't need to be nerfed they don't need to be changed, things are fine the way they are.

I would like to see something done about the spamming HiPS imho that's an exploit. I've watched sneaks walk off to the side out of combat and then sit there and hide and unhide (mainly to crash players who haven't gotten their PC's fixed, ie JP). Seems malicious and not in the spirit of the game.

My esteemed colleague burra also forgot to add in there, make a spotter build. It may be complicated and frustrating, but it can be done. If you have the right books and gear, you can make a killer spotter.

disastro · Post by **disastro** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am

cRaZy8or5e wrote: I would like to see something done about the spamming HiPS imho that's an exploit. I've watched sneaks walk off to the side out of combat and then sit there and hide and unhide (mainly to crash players who haven't gotten their PC's fixed, ie JP). Seems malicious and not in the spirit of the game.

limiting the spam hips is precisely the suggestion de_slider is railing against in his post (though i agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what he said). the suggestion in question was to change hips from a builtin feat to a token activated power that can then be scripted. purely technical issue.

then the devs could put in exactly what you're asking for, crazy: 1 hips attempt per round. this is a common limitation on other 'hak required' servers, and it's the default in nwn2 (where they additionally added a 15 second cooldown on a hips attempt if you FAIL your hide check.) hell, i think even baldurs gate had a 1 hide per round limit, and that is most certainly the case in any pen and paper dnd game i've played.

one hips per round doesnt sound like a nerf to me, it sounds like an exploit fix. google it.

de_slider · Post by **de_slider** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:25 pm

disastro wrote:limiting the spam hips is precisely the suggestion de_slider is railing against in his post

Don't know to many "he's" who *giggles* He is a she.. that's why I make so much sense in my posts. LOL

disastro wrote:one hips per round doesnt sound like a nerf to me, it sounds like an exploit fix. google it.

To call spaming HiPs an exploit would be to call Spaming KD by a fighter an exploit or the repeated use of curse song by bards when a character knows how to shake off the curse immeadiately or Spaming Disarm until you have a successful drop of a weapon or any other skill/feat that can be spammed.

One major thing to keep in mind when you speak of the legitimate use of skills or feats... referring the use of them regardless as to the number of time they can be used in a round as "an exploit" will have anyone who has a problem with any skill or feat that can be spawmmed crying foul and demanding that they complaints get "fixed" too. If the devs start with one, they just might have to keep going..

So be dang careful what you wish for.. you just might get it, in spades too.

PS. My spotter says to all HiPsters... "spam away I will see you".. (so funny to watch too)

disastro · Post by **disastro** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:36 pm

heh, i stand corrected, Ms. giggles!

if there are complaints about spamming kd/disarm/etc then start a separate thread and talk about that. the merits of those are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

in any case I have no problems limiting kd/disarm to once per base attack per round, executed at their actual iterative attack bonus (isnt that how it works now regardless of spam?) if you want to try a kd on your last iterative attack at -15 or whatever, go for it!

PeregrineV · Post by **PeregrineV** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:50 pm

Is knockdown spamable? I thought it was combat related, and queues up during combat, like a regular attack or called shot. Is that not the case?

Lorkar1 · Post by **Lorkar1** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:46 pm

Knockdown like Disarm is an action that needs to be selected each and every attack. HiPSing clears any attack round but it will not clear someone HiPSing. So spamming it is not like spamming HiPS. Whereas HiPS is a free action Knockdown and Disarm are not. Neither is Curse Song a free action, so in order to "spam" it the recipient needs to quaff a restore like effect or potion.

Gornickthy · Post by **Gornickthy** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:43 pm

I will make this short and sweet. HiPS should be changed just like the bard song song was. It should not be a free action, plain and simple. I play some nasty HiPSers and I feel this way.

I also strongly believe that it is not the classes that are out of control but rather the ridiculous DC, ab, ac, and skill levels that are being achieved. Yes, it is very good building skills most of the time to achive such levels. The thing is that if a toon takes full skill points in a class feat and then takes epic skill focus in that skill they should be pretty good at it. Right? Ya, it makes sense. Ok, add a few items in to increase the ability and they should be really really good at it. Right? Yes, it makes sense even to the most daft who want to argue ever so bad. The problem we are facing at this juncture is that even those skills are not being enough to match the outrageous skills and abilities being achieved by some builds. Again, good building to those who do it, but it is beyond reason many times. I could continue with examples and so forth, but hey... many people are here because they like how things are starting to become uber levels just like NS 3.5 and they will flame and argue with anyone who tries to point this situation out.

Anyways.. that is what I have seen, witnessed, and concluded. Agree or not those are the plain and simple facts regardless. In the end it is still a game and will remain to be played until the fun of it has vanished. Carry on.

mgrjebbo · Post by **mgrjebbo** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 pm

i completely agree on the uber factor. i wouldnt mind giving up my time to roll back the weapons and armor to +5 or lower, making boss gear +5 max.

new areas new mobs new gear, its all good but it can still be good with those caps in place.

yay for non-uberness.

oh and for god sakes, make sure ns5 has a solid gear stat limit to start with that never changes. its what needs to happen.

i appologize for getting off topic guys, i just feel strongly about this.

Post by **LinuxPup** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:29 pm

I will make this short and sweet. HiPS should be changed just like the bard song song was. It should not be a free action, plain and simple.

Well tell that to Bioware then... as far as I know, we can't change that... if we could, you can bet Lokey would have nerfed it years ago!

Here's how I see it, and I don't necessariliy speak for the NS4 staff... HiPS is very very powerful obviously... can even make a bad player good... but its not unstoppable, and if anything, the overpowering thing are those epic rings of shadows (+14 hide/ms with two of them on).

Also, IMO, spamming HiPS when your target can detect you but can't attack you because it clears the action queue every time is an exploit...not all DMs may think so (not sure), but I definitely do and would most likely deal out punishment.

Also NS4 has nothing like NS3.5 uberness... show me where an item drops with FoM, immunity to Death Magic, KD, Sneak Attacks, Mind Effects, Ability/Level Drain, Harm, Disease, Poison, etc.... to say NS4 is becoming like NS3.5 is just plain silly... there are NS3.5 characters that could literally take on 10+ NS4 level 40s and win... completely different worlds.

And as Binkyuk said earlier... the AB isn't a problem if the AC is scaled appropriately.... so putting +5 limits for everything doesn't gain you anything.