Clerical Dilemma

[P. Fricebottle]

I'm sure you are all familiar with Gary by now and I'm not out to whine about how my old build is becoming inferior, but theres been something I've noticed.

NS4 is very focused on Characters over Gear, after what happened to NS3.5 where the Character was the Gear. However, while this has come true to multiple places where the Developers have successfully rationed out bonuses and resistances on Items realistically, I believe theres one place that they went overboard on.

Death Saves.

They're thrown around like candy. Stone Golems are immune to DeathMagic. Searching on the Wiki I pulled up 26 items with Death Save. And they're not all of one item type either.

• Helmet - Slave Master's Helm, +4 Death.
• Gloves - Gal-Ralan, +4 Death.
• Cloak - Vampire's Cloack, +3 Death.
• Robes - Death Shroud, +3 Death
• Light Armor - Chanter's Shroud, +4 Death
• Medium Armor - Death Chain, +3 Death
• Tower Shield - Guardian Greaves, +3 Death
• Longbow - Bonestrike, +1 Death

Those are the main Death Items PvP will use, as I'm not going to bother listing the other level 16 and such items with death saves. Theres multiple ones with Death Saves for Heavy Armor, but they're at level 16 and if you're wearing Heavy Armor you most likely have a good fortitude in the first place. And those 26 don't include Fortitude Items which will end up giving you a Death Save anyway.

Now, assuming someone wears the Chanter's Shroud and uses an anonymous weapon plus the rest of the miscellaneous gear and the Guardian Greaves, they will have a +18 to their Death Save. Being sensible, you can assume they will not have all of the aforementioned gear so you can approximate their Death Save bonus at 10-14.

Assume you're fighting someone level 40 or around there in PvP, thats +10 from Epic Saves to Fortitude. The minimum for Pre-Epic Fortitude is +6. So thats 16 Fortitude with a possible +18 for 32, a low around 26. Now, thats assuming said person went their first 20 levels pure rogue/wizard/etc. Most people are sensible enough to multi-class for a decent save.

Also theres the Spellcraft aspect, to where every 5 Spellcraft gives a +1 to saves against Magic. So a Caster with 40 Spellcraft will receive +8 to their Save. Add this in and you suddenly have a 40, again, assuming they went their first 20 levels sorcerer or wizard.

Average it out, with multi-classing and such, it is incredibly easy to get an extremely high Death Save. Theres Bard Song for a nice Fortitude, and if you're a class without Spellcraft you can easily get the +8 through a Feat or two and some Multi-Classing. And then I didn't even calculate in the Fortitude and Constitution Bonuses that will affect your Death Save from Belts and the common spell Endurance. For Casters, on the other hand, the absolute maximum DC for a Death Save is 48 (I believe).

And since I've already brought myself to make a topic I'll get a few things out of the way about clerics being overpowered, they're still pretty good, awesome in fact, but please don't bring whining in this thread. Simple debate would be just fine.

• Word of Faith has a counter. My cleric focused completely in Evocation, pure level 40, with 50 Wisdom, has been unable to dispel a level 30 Pale Master Summon in every battle I have fought with MA.
• Aura, not sure if it was intended this way or no, seems glitched as I've had multiple guards dispel my Holy Aura. Over 20 levels below me in caster levels and still dispel me.
• Battles go a lot nicer when there's not whining on shout. If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it. Avoid the "/" and "s" buttons at all cost if you plan on starting a flame war, no one wants to hear it.

Edit: Also another common Bonus on items worth looking into is Taunt, which is available on rings, cloaks, helmets, belts, and a medium level 20 armor with +7 Taunt that I'm not really sure is worth mentioning. Mainly its the first 3.

[Mythri Wolfwood]

I am by no means an expert on Clerics and have not leveled mine past 22, but I have noticed a few things.

Just today I was buffed by a level 39 cleric and somehow, many if not all of the buffs were dispelled by a pesky Amazon Singer. That was most strange. And, yes, the Aura vs. Alignment buff imparted to me by said cleric was dispelled.

Secondly, from my limited experience playing a pure Cleric, I have noticed that they are more party-oriented than other pure classes. By no means are they underpowered, but for me, it made more sense when I was playing my pure cleric to focus on keeping my party alive. Sure, for a brief amount of time I can buff myself up enough to take on any situation, but that's the thing, it lasts a short amount of time which was/is the intent. I suppose if you're careful and are good at powerbuilding, you could probably make yourself a nice pure cleric that can solo a lot of places with careful planning and frequent rests.

Now to the offensive spells Clerics can cast. Storm of Vengeance works amazingly well on Giant Mountain and in Giant Caves. After that, I don't know if it works so well. Word of Faith is nice in PvM, but in PvP, you're most likely going up against someone with a source of Restoration. Ice Storm and Creeping Doom (from domain) are nice spells but are not very party friendly. I don't see them cast very often in PvM, but they do have uses in PvP. Fire-based spells, and for that matter "divine" spells like Sunburst and Searing Light, are good counters against Drow in PvP - likewise they have their uses against the Undead (recalls the Undead Dragon DM event from way back - good times). Clerics do get access to the Epic Spells like Hellball (useful in PvP and PvM if you know WHEN to use it), Epic Summons, Greater Ruin. And they get a nice SR boosting spell which can be a double-edged sword.

And now, for the gear bonuses. A properly planned build will ultimately be built with a specific set of gear in mind. You have a build with low fortitude save? Load up on CON/fort/death save boosting gear. Suppose you have someone with a pre-epic save of 6 be it Fort, Reflex, or Will. Add on 10 from Epic Save Progression and a naked level 40 will have 16 for its lowest save. Taking an Epic Save feat bumps that to 20. Now, add on a Merfolk Highlord's Helm or 2 spellcraft rings (assuming you put at least 1 point in Spellcraft) or something more specific to your character's deficiencies like a crafted belt, crafted ammy, or crafted boots (minimum save bonus here is 6 I believe) and you're looking at anywhere from +2 to +10 or +12 to a deficient save category. I'd say a +4 bonus to saves across the board from gear isn't too big of a stretch (any +8 STAT item without any additional saves will do). So, now we're at 24. A focused imploder will get a DC in the upper 40's. So, say a person has a fort save of 24. On average they'll roll at 34 save versus an implosion. But, if you add a Level 30 Bard song (+5 to saves), you're at 39. Now, add in Great Fortitude (+2), a belt with both +8 CON and +4 fortitude save (+4), a Xag-Ya ring (+2), and you're looking at a minimum save of 49. Suppose someone doesn't have a Bard friend to buff them, substitute a Potion of Protection From Spells. Even without that +5 boost, you're looking at an average roll of 44 vs. something like implosion. That's pretty darn high.

So, yes I do agree with Fricebottle's assessment above. However, this is something that plagues all casters. And, it is something that was probably going to be addressed via pure class bonuses as well as additional spell tweaks. It seems like development on NS4 has slowed down of late due to RL and work towards NS5. NS4 as it stands right now isn't quite complete. Hopefully when a new NS4 Dev is found and RL issues are resolved, development on NS4 can resume in full stride (*crosses fingers for more pure class bonuses and for the inclusion of Energy Orbs in the Planar Shop).

[Apokriphos]

I believe that pure classed clerics & wizards are already more then powerful enough (52 SR, up to 48 dc pierces immunity implosion, etc), and a pure class bonus would make this already great advantage obscene.

That being said, I'd like to repost something I wrote earlier in a different thread. http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns4/viewt ... ght=#73328

I think that spellcasters should get a +1 spell dc and damage di for every single spell on every third epic spellcaster level, and +1 on top of that if they are completely pure at 40th. So, +7 additional dc if a pure 40th spellcaster. That is how Three Towns, another PW Action server I have played on, has implimented it, and it works extremely well.

They also have it so that Arcane archers and palemasters recieve spellcaster levels +1/2 their total aa or pm level.

I agree with you in this, that the spell dcs do need to be looked at if its possible for the devs to do so.

However, the crux of the issue I believe is that rolling a one on anything should be an automatic failure. Even the best of us should be able to:

*trips...sword slides through eyeball..removes sword...drinks pot.. continues walking*

[LinuxPup]

I don't think clerics are affected by the death bonuses (at least not for implosion).

[P. Fricebottle]

I don't think clerics are affected by the death bonuses (at least not for implosion).

That...doesn't make any sense. What isn't affected by Death Bonuses? Do you mean that Improved Saving Throws vs. Death don't work against Implosion? I can tell you straight up that they do, because I've seen countless a times saves in the high 50s and I know no character has a Fortitude that high.

I think you mean that Implosion bypasses Death Ward. Its a swap between the two most popular Death Spells. Wail of the Banshee has a Colossal Area of Effect but can be blocked by Death Ward, while Implosion can only target one person (but still acts as an AoE spell so can be targeted on the ground due to Bioware hard-coding) but bypasses Death Ward.

Secondly, from my limited experience playing a pure Cleric, I have noticed that they are more party-oriented than other pure classes. By no means are they underpowered, but for me, it made more sense when I was playing my pure cleric to focus on keeping my party alive. Sure, for a brief amount of time I can buff myself up enough to take on any situation, but that's the thing, it lasts a short amount of time which was/is the intent. I suppose if you're careful and are good at powerbuilding, you could probably make yourself a nice pure cleric that can solo a lot of places with careful planning and frequent rests.

Actually thats the way Developers intended it. If you're a cleric, you're not supposed to be soloing but rather supporting a party as thats the way Clerics were originally intended. Thats the entire reason I built Gary, as a Support Cleric. Otherwise I would have Multi-Classed so he could hold his ground in the Melee. And no class, with the exception of Pale Masters but thats a stretch, can solo near anything past Amazons in the Planes.

[Ebenezer Grymm]

Linux is right, Implosion isn't effected by + vs Death saves. It's not a Death spell.

And yeah people do have fort saves in the 50's. Items, spellcraft, prot vs spells, feats, it's not that hard. Heck I'm a pure wiz and buffed I get i think +44 vs your dc 45 implode, and I hardly wear any +saves gear. Ialso havent read a Con book yet on Eb (I have it just havent farmed enough xp over 40 to not de-level). So that'll be +46 fort save, on a pure wiz.

Thats why Urguroth was suggesting a +dc for caster classes in epic levels because, as it is with the way epic saves work, caster dc's suck even if u go with 10 Great whatever feats and a +4 book to your casting stat. Thats why all you see on most wizs is isaacs, no save. I'm familiar with 3 towns and how they do their epic dc bonuses and I think it's a good idea to do something similiar here but not nearly as powerful as they do because they have MUCH more prevelent +saves gear. I'd be happy with maybe +5 or 6 dc to all spells at pure 40 wiz or sorc. Oh, and the ability to summon my familiar would be sweet too

[P. Fricebottle]

Linux is right, Implosion isn't effected by + vs Death saves. It's not a Death spell.

Its a Death Spell. Its Instant Death, its a Death Spell. Its just not a Necromancy spell. I'll have to test that with Plankton or someone later if a Dev doesn't come in and clarify just to make sure, but I'm pretty sure its affected by Death Saves.

I'm trying to figure out how you get a 46 For Save on a pure Wizard.

• 8 Fortitude Pre-Epic Levels
• 10 Fortitude Epic Levels
• 8 Fortitude from Constitution (Assumed - Could be Lower)
• 7 From Feats
• 5 Tenser's Transformation
• 4 Fortitude from Belt
• 2 Gal-Ralan

That adds up exactly to 44, assuming you took Strong Soul, Great Fortitude, have 26 Constitution buffed, commonly use Tenser's Transformation, wear Gal-Ralan gloves, and have belt that gives +4 Fortitude. Assuming you have 40 Spellcraft for +8 vs. the spell, which makes up for not taking the feats, its a stretch. Either way, thats pretty crazy considering Wizard's are supposed to be weak on Fortitude.

However, I whole-heartedly agree with your suggestion as I'm gradually finding my implosions only useful on characters several levels below me.

[Sparky]

Keep in mind that he's a wizard, and a wizard's high int helps boost their spell saves from spellcraft even more. Also, add in the spell "Protection from Spells" and a Wizard is surprisingly resiliant in resisting spells.

[MasterYoda]

ok im a huge cleric advocate but clerics are one of the best classes in game. Especially if you multiclass em with ither classes.

Clerics dont need any help atm in my oppinion. Mabey pure class clerics but other than that no.

clerics are the ( to bards IMO ) 2nd best multiclassing class in the server.

Alot can be done with clerics ... and im saying this from the perspective of a TC cleric ( no haste or ii )

Implosion is the only spell i know of that can one shot planar mobs ......

DC on spells is needed for pure true .... but other classes need more attention first.

[Ebenezer Grymm]

Sparky pretty much nailed it, i wear some +to fort gear, a crystal ammy, and prot from spells gives me +8, and at LEAST 8 from spellcraft, maybe more, u nailed the +8 from con (soon to be +10). I never really went back and deconstructed it I just know what I read.

But no I didn't take any feats like Great Fort

However I think your original point was that +vs Death gear is too prevelant. I'm tellin ya Implosion isn't considered a Death spell. So with that in mind, you see how easy people save against your Implosion, imagine how wiz and sorc feel when they see how easy people save against finger and wail, which are effected by +vs death gear.

I think you can probly see the difference yourself by casting slay living then implode on someone wearing +vs Death gear and looking at their saves vs them.

[kgb]

Agreed that there should be some increase to DCs. I believe it should not be limited to a pure class bonus but based on whether you have invested in the "Great X" Feats.

Perhaps a +1 DC bonus for every 2 Great X Feats to a maximum of +5.


The highest DC you can get on spells for a focussed cleric is 49 if you take Wild Elf.

To dedicate a build that much to reach the maximum DC obviously at the expense of designing a well-rounded character should be feared.

Yet planar creatures and high-level players shrug off these DCs like "hmmpf ... gee wiz did someone just try to tear me apart molecule by molecule!"

There are already penalties in multi-classing by providing minimums of 5 post 20 and for prestige classes which water down spellcasters should you not be pure.

The normal undispellable cap was 26 but I believe it is higher now. The problem is investing beyond this level substantially does not bring with it relative rewards. The example mentioned of being dispelled by someone 20 levels lower should not happen.

[Amoenotep]

implosion is a death spell..its just that it bypasses normal death immunity sometimes.

[BlkMamba]

Implosion is a Evocation based spell, it crushes its opponents, therefore Death Ward and the like have no effect.

The Save is a Fort save vs Death, all Gear that can improve your save vs death are added into the save bonus

Back in the day Death Ward use to protect vs Implosion till bioware fixed it

[kgb]

If as you say it is a Fort Save vs Death then what has been alluded to by Fricebottle about the number of Death Save items would require the reinstatement of the +3DC Implosion used to have above other equivalent level spells.

At the time the spell was an area affect spell and not a single target as implemented here. On this rationale then the DC should be much higher!


The fact is if a character has invested that much to have a 50 Wisdom and max DC49 it should not be rendered sub par by a collection of death gear items which cost little to equip other than the effort to reach down and pick them up off the floor.

It's like saying " Look here this Mercedes Benz is bullet proof because of this $1 part!"

[LinuxPup]

The fact is if a character has invested that much to have a 50 Wisdom and max DC49 it should not be rendered sub par by a collection of death gear items which cost little to equip other than the effort to reach down and pick them up off the floor.

A DC 49 implosion would not be sub par on NS4 as it is now... Gary's DC 45 regularly kills higher level characters already.

If a cleric with 49 DC can't kill someone, then maybe he shouldn't have spent so much time making a one trick pony.