Remember way back when Mages had to gain more experience to level than fighters. Might be worth debating on an ECL type thing for certain classes...
Seems to me that with all that flashy shiny twinkly burny stingy ouchy power you should require more training. The thing that unbalances the game now is that all classes gain levels at an equal rate. But they don't gain power the same way.
Now before you all start hating me and whatnot, think on it. How long does it take you to learn a sport (this is assuming you are physically geared to sports in general)? On the other hand: how long does it take you to learn complex maths or grammar? Or have I gone off my rocker and am the only one that sees a parallel?
Old skool suggestion bout mages vs melee
Old skool suggestion bout mages vs melee
I am the terror that flaps in the night!!!
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Æ
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OH my god, second edition to the rescue! how could I forget about that? What a great idea! It's beautiful in it's simplicity }: )
Since mages can go around quickly blasting the hell out of everything, several enemies at a time*, in about half the time, and, consequently, get xp at about twice the rate, why not simply require them to get more xp to level, or gain less xp per kill, so it would balance out and they would have to spend 4 to 6 hours gaining EACH of the teen levels just like the melee'ers do as we grind our teeth in the agony of tedium }: )
*[[For confirmation on this, get a mage or cleric up to level 9, go to old town north and the old crypt, or the rock peak mosoleum (if you're LA), and cast Undeath to Death two or three times per room... and that's just one example]]
And I'd imagine it would be pretty easy for the Dev's to do too, just tweak some variables
In regard to effective class level, maybe the spells the wizard/sorc knows or has memorized should effect this.... for instance a sorc that chooses only the most damaging evocation spells would have be considered a higher level than one with less destructive power and therefore get less xp. Each spell could be "worth points" depending on how destructive it is so mages would have to think of whether they want to evocation spam and get less xp, or balance out the character's spellbook more
Since mages can go around quickly blasting the hell out of everything, several enemies at a time*, in about half the time, and, consequently, get xp at about twice the rate, why not simply require them to get more xp to level, or gain less xp per kill, so it would balance out and they would have to spend 4 to 6 hours gaining EACH of the teen levels just like the melee'ers do as we grind our teeth in the agony of tedium }: )
*[[For confirmation on this, get a mage or cleric up to level 9, go to old town north and the old crypt, or the rock peak mosoleum (if you're LA), and cast Undeath to Death two or three times per room... and that's just one example]]
And I'd imagine it would be pretty easy for the Dev's to do too, just tweak some variables
In regard to effective class level, maybe the spells the wizard/sorc knows or has memorized should effect this.... for instance a sorc that chooses only the most damaging evocation spells would have be considered a higher level than one with less destructive power and therefore get less xp. Each spell could be "worth points" depending on how destructive it is so mages would have to think of whether they want to evocation spam and get less xp, or balance out the character's spellbook more
Last edited by Æ on Tue May 04, 2004 1:32 am, edited 5 times in total.
{FotS} Ælæressai, Forsaken Avatar Of Ckær'evlon
14 Fighter/7 Weapon Master (Rapier)/1 Rogue [LA Outcast]
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8 Rogue/1 Fighter/1 Shadowdancer [MA]
14 Fighter/7 Weapon Master (Rapier)/1 Rogue [LA Outcast]
:[FotS]: Ælæressai, Forsaken Avatar Of Ckær'evlon
8 Rogue/1 Fighter/1 Shadowdancer [MA]
I agree wholly with that Jester and actually thought I had put that in there. The beginnings of magic are relatively simple and easy to comprehend so they shouldnt be any more difficult to learn than how not to stab yerself while hacking at yon gobbo.
And defining the ecl (or substitute) by the destructiveness of spells could be expanded to encompass the effectiveness of any given spell but there are sooooo many variables that factor into that it would be impossible to gague accurately all the time.
And defining the ecl (or substitute) by the destructiveness of spells could be expanded to encompass the effectiveness of any given spell but there are sooooo many variables that factor into that it would be impossible to gague accurately all the time.
I am the terror that flaps in the night!!!
I played PnP 1E for years.
While it had a number of problems, mages ( magic-users) were not designed for melee combat. They were essentially the 'heavy weapons' section of a party. Defended by clerics and fighters, they had the power to take out large groups of giants, orc, enemy fighters, castles, enemy ships, hordes of ants ( Them ! ), etc.
Ah well, those were the days. Now mages think they have to be like fighters.
its not one of their strengths.
a party of adventurers. Each with their skills that mean the survival of the party of adventurers.
Hmmm. Thats what ns4 is all about.
While it had a number of problems, mages ( magic-users) were not designed for melee combat. They were essentially the 'heavy weapons' section of a party. Defended by clerics and fighters, they had the power to take out large groups of giants, orc, enemy fighters, castles, enemy ships, hordes of ants ( Them ! ), etc.
Ah well, those were the days. Now mages think they have to be like fighters.
its not one of their strengths.
a party of adventurers. Each with their skills that mean the survival of the party of adventurers.
Hmmm. Thats what ns4 is all about.
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Alanthaleous
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Aye mages are the "heavy guns" or a PARTY based mod where you fight only mobs... But when you throw faction vs faction into the mix... those guns get labeled griefers... no why a lvl 10 warrrior can take a lvl 10 mage... it is unbalanced. ELC for mage classes after lvl 5 would be a great idea... would make less axons running around terrorizing noobs and warriors alike on his mad whim.
The problem here is that PnP mages are not the mages we have here.
NWN is about being a hero, a legend, cleric PCs you see arent regular priests, Wizard PCs aint just a silly fireball throwing old men and fighter PCs aint just silly sword swingers. They are supposed to be near gods in later levels. I mean when does the mage get the first spell that really defends him from melee? Lvl 4 youd say, but when comparing to average fighter damage at lvl 7-8, stoneskin doesnt last very long, fighters own mages at lvl 8 simply cause they dont have the spells to defend well vs melee, they only have 1 dangerous spell to fighters and thats PK, but in melee, theyre dead. Lvl 15 is usually around the maximum where PnP gets from what I understood, and thats outrageously high, at lvl 3-10 these characters arent gods(just like in NWN) theyre just very strong adventurers, and thats why in PnP, mages dont last long in melee, because they arent at the high levels. But NWN(yea thank bioware) just had to be based around the "Build your very own god!" concept, the 40 lvls made it even worse since with +5 weapons mages were actually quite balanced, but now they can gain insane AC aswell.
Its usually just the best to accept the imbalance, but when items make it worse(which is exactly my point), its no fun anymore that you cant even do good damage to an UNBUFFED mage, simply because he has access to items that remove his only weakness. The fighter relies on items gotten from slaying mythical godlike animals(sometimes even gods themselves) or items made by gods for him, clerics/paladins rely on powers they gain from the god/deity they worship, sorcerers rely on their force which grows with experience, wizards rely on their knowledge of magic and how to use it, which also grows with experience. The fighter is left at a disadvantage when items with defensive properties against melee damage exist, while as items become stronger, magic from for instance buffs becomes way less usefull, and the fighter whos focussed around dealing damage without beefing himself up with powers gained from a god suddenly becomes alot more powerfull simply because hes can use his weapon much more effectively(Such as a weapon master). Why give fighters uber weapons and then make items have even stronger defensive properties? As it is now, a fighter would be better off if there were only plain full plates, shields and swords without magic enhancements. What I mean is, caster classes gain their powers purely by leveling, once a wizard is lvl 9, he doesnt need an item to start casting lvl 5 spells or anything, he can just start using them. Once a fighter reaches level 9 however, and gains an improved critical feat with scimitars(which represents him better able to use the weapon to hit the opponents where it hurts and deals damage the most, which is what critical hits represent) but when a wizard has an item that make him immune to critical hits, do his powers get to be put to any use when hes fighting the Wizard? No. The same is true with damage immunity, except this time its when the fighter reaches level 16 and gets an extra point in strength which gives him +1 to damage, yet that only means more damage is absorbed by damage immunity.
NWN is about being a hero, a legend, cleric PCs you see arent regular priests, Wizard PCs aint just a silly fireball throwing old men and fighter PCs aint just silly sword swingers. They are supposed to be near gods in later levels. I mean when does the mage get the first spell that really defends him from melee? Lvl 4 youd say, but when comparing to average fighter damage at lvl 7-8, stoneskin doesnt last very long, fighters own mages at lvl 8 simply cause they dont have the spells to defend well vs melee, they only have 1 dangerous spell to fighters and thats PK, but in melee, theyre dead. Lvl 15 is usually around the maximum where PnP gets from what I understood, and thats outrageously high, at lvl 3-10 these characters arent gods(just like in NWN) theyre just very strong adventurers, and thats why in PnP, mages dont last long in melee, because they arent at the high levels. But NWN(yea thank bioware) just had to be based around the "Build your very own god!" concept, the 40 lvls made it even worse since with +5 weapons mages were actually quite balanced, but now they can gain insane AC aswell.
Its usually just the best to accept the imbalance, but when items make it worse(which is exactly my point), its no fun anymore that you cant even do good damage to an UNBUFFED mage, simply because he has access to items that remove his only weakness. The fighter relies on items gotten from slaying mythical godlike animals(sometimes even gods themselves) or items made by gods for him, clerics/paladins rely on powers they gain from the god/deity they worship, sorcerers rely on their force which grows with experience, wizards rely on their knowledge of magic and how to use it, which also grows with experience. The fighter is left at a disadvantage when items with defensive properties against melee damage exist, while as items become stronger, magic from for instance buffs becomes way less usefull, and the fighter whos focussed around dealing damage without beefing himself up with powers gained from a god suddenly becomes alot more powerfull simply because hes can use his weapon much more effectively(Such as a weapon master). Why give fighters uber weapons and then make items have even stronger defensive properties? As it is now, a fighter would be better off if there were only plain full plates, shields and swords without magic enhancements. What I mean is, caster classes gain their powers purely by leveling, once a wizard is lvl 9, he doesnt need an item to start casting lvl 5 spells or anything, he can just start using them. Once a fighter reaches level 9 however, and gains an improved critical feat with scimitars(which represents him better able to use the weapon to hit the opponents where it hurts and deals damage the most, which is what critical hits represent) but when a wizard has an item that make him immune to critical hits, do his powers get to be put to any use when hes fighting the Wizard? No. The same is true with damage immunity, except this time its when the fighter reaches level 16 and gets an extra point in strength which gives him +1 to damage, yet that only means more damage is absorbed by damage immunity.
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KillingSheep
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Æ
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Shouldn't have to be a cleric to be a good melee'er... don't you think a fighter should be the best fighting class? makes sense to me
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8 Rogue/1 Fighter/1 Shadowdancer [MA]
14 Fighter/7 Weapon Master (Rapier)/1 Rogue [LA Outcast]
:[FotS]: Ælæressai, Forsaken Avatar Of Ckær'evlon
8 Rogue/1 Fighter/1 Shadowdancer [MA]
If you say a lvl 40 fighter, then no.
Simply because fighters are a weak class, its only what you should start out as, untill you can get a better class(usually a PrC like the DD, WM etc)
The mage PrCs are pretty gimped because of bioware, and no true mage PrC classes have been put in because it would make them too powerfull...yet they were too scared to add in the divine champion as per DnD 3E rules because it would be too strong...*sigh*
So basicly, fighters must go PrC to gain more power and mages can stay the base class since the stronger fighter PrCs arent in, not that they have much of an option(only one that makes for a somewhat decent mage is PM, and that still weakens the casting ability big time). But a lvl 10 ftr/28 Wm/2 rogue shouldnt be getting his buttocks kicked by a 35 cleric/4 ftr/1 monk just cause the cleric abuses monk BAB bug(Ill stop biobashing now=p, we all know whats wrong with monks) and uses DF and DP to gain insanely high AB, aswell use Improved invis to be basicly unhittable. Yet it happens, and theres little you can do about it, since a cleric gains powers from a god, and your just a lowly fighter that knows how to use a scimitar like a god, but because the cleric is wearing 25% slash immunity robes and 10/- slashing resist the little damage you can do is ignored, you stand even less of a chance.
Simply because fighters are a weak class, its only what you should start out as, untill you can get a better class(usually a PrC like the DD, WM etc)
The mage PrCs are pretty gimped because of bioware, and no true mage PrC classes have been put in because it would make them too powerfull...yet they were too scared to add in the divine champion as per DnD 3E rules because it would be too strong...*sigh*
So basicly, fighters must go PrC to gain more power and mages can stay the base class since the stronger fighter PrCs arent in, not that they have much of an option(only one that makes for a somewhat decent mage is PM, and that still weakens the casting ability big time). But a lvl 10 ftr/28 Wm/2 rogue shouldnt be getting his buttocks kicked by a 35 cleric/4 ftr/1 monk just cause the cleric abuses monk BAB bug(Ill stop biobashing now=p, we all know whats wrong with monks) and uses DF and DP to gain insanely high AB, aswell use Improved invis to be basicly unhittable. Yet it happens, and theres little you can do about it, since a cleric gains powers from a god, and your just a lowly fighter that knows how to use a scimitar like a god, but because the cleric is wearing 25% slash immunity robes and 10/- slashing resist the little damage you can do is ignored, you stand even less of a chance.
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Alanthaleous
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Some of us cant become prestige class due to skill limitation of expantions... Great I can make an arcane archer with only SoU but no Weapons Master without HoU because you can not access intimidate skill with out that expansion... limits us with budgets...
But the fact remains the Fighters use magic weapons and armor to battle magical creatures... Give the forces of magic all the items and next to nothing to the fighters, and you have dead fighters laying around. I like pure blood classes, but with the way it is going now, you wont see many lvl 40 (and for the matter many lvl 20) single class fighters... many fighter/clerics or fighter/bards or fighter/anyclass...
Fighter class gear that is limited not just not the fighter class but by CLASS LEVEL not character class might help slove this problem... Yes it gives the fighter the edge, and before other classes start whining about this, tell me where my amulet of a +2 ab is... you have spell amulets... where is our fighter gear... you got summons, pets, spells, and some great enhancement gear. Where is the fighters gear? At the moment the best classes are a Fighter/cleric... spells and melee, the best of both worlds and divine magicks are subject to spell failure to armor penilities
But the fact remains the Fighters use magic weapons and armor to battle magical creatures... Give the forces of magic all the items and next to nothing to the fighters, and you have dead fighters laying around. I like pure blood classes, but with the way it is going now, you wont see many lvl 40 (and for the matter many lvl 20) single class fighters... many fighter/clerics or fighter/bards or fighter/anyclass...
Fighter class gear that is limited not just not the fighter class but by CLASS LEVEL not character class might help slove this problem... Yes it gives the fighter the edge, and before other classes start whining about this, tell me where my amulet of a +2 ab is... you have spell amulets... where is our fighter gear... you got summons, pets, spells, and some great enhancement gear. Where is the fighters gear? At the moment the best classes are a Fighter/cleric... spells and melee, the best of both worlds and divine magicks are subject to spell failure to armor penilities