Relics and Revenge

Post by **Yonwe** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:52 am

After a series of PM's sent to me about people relogging after failed relic raids, and a bit of discussion amongst us DMs, I just want to remind people that Commandment V is is what it says:

V. Thou shall not relog a higher level character to exact revenge on a lost fight. In the case of defending your faction town, this will be allowed if you do not change faction from one char to another

If you relog a toon to take revenge on players in any PvP fight, you're breaking the commandments unless you're in the narrow exception of defending your faction town.

However, you must also remember that the relics are a feature of Neversummer 4, and not the purpose. The relics, in the end, are inanimate objects, and are not other players - if someone loses a raid, relogs, and goes for the relic cradle while trying to avoid combat with other PCs, and then the defenders take the first swing, they're the ones acting as the hostile party.

It's no different as if someone was killed by defenders while killing town guards, relogged, continued to kill town guard with the new character, and was killed by the defenders again; you can kill invaders as many times as you want while defending, but realize that you still may be the "hostile party" if you throw the first punch in a given brawl.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:00 am

From what I have read you are NOT allowed to return to the scene with ANY other character after you have been PKed... How does this not apply to failed relic raids or dying in such a raid and then logging another character to try again?

MLoki

*Edit* I know this because I brought this up once as a question after I relogged another character to help raise some fallen party members who had been PKed.

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns4/viewt ... sc&start=0

Relevent part of that thread...

[quote="MLoki"]I did recently log another toon after our party was attacked and the current toon I was playing was not killed and I was unable to raise them with the one I was playing. I did log another character to help raise and buff my party and help them get back together and while doing so I was attacked again and accused of revenge logging after I killed the pker for attacking me. It was unclear at the time if this action was allowed or not and an argument insued. This is why I brought the question here. [quote]

Later I was told that this was indeed a form of revenge logging.

Post by **Yonwe** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:19 am

Nothing says you can't return to the site of a death, as long as you don't start a fight for revenge. We aim to reproduce things in NS with the same logic and guidelines as the real world; and like in the real world, there's a big difference between walking around with a big gun, and shooting someone with a big gun.

Revenge is literally going out and killing the person who killed you; if they relog and take a swing at you, that's revenge without a doubt. But them relogging and then walking past you is like if, in the real world, you killed someone, walked past their brother on the street, and shot the brother first because you thought they were coming for revenge. It doesn't matter if they're walking to the next area over on Giant Mountain or towards the relic cradle right next to you - it's not revenge until they become aggressive towards you, the killer, if you follow.

(Edit to answer your editted question!) - The somewhat legal-eeze answer of TGPO's above fits in with the fundamentally aggressive nature of revenge - you can't relog a 40th level cleric to rez your party and then have that character join in with the original party for revenge. If that cleric does nothing but rez and then stands back, you're perfectly fine. And if the killers attacked that cleric while he was rezzing, that cleric could defend himself; the cleric just couldn't start a new fight unprovoked in any way.

It comes down to the real world analogy of "stealing your family's TV is not the same as killing your wife" - raiding a relic cradle is attacking an object, not a player. By all means, defend all you want and kill every invader that sets foot on your soil without fear of reprisal; but, if you throw the first punch in a fight, you're also provoking someone else to defend themselves who might otherwise have totally ignored your existence.

kingfatzo · Post by **kingfatzo** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:28 am

if i may attempt to simplify this for those who wished to be spared of the technical jargon..... :
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let us assume i have 2 toons in my account named TOON#1 and TOON#2

If i raid with TOON #1 and LOOSE, then it is OK if i immediatly RELOG and raid with TOON #2 as a second attempt AS LONG AS i do not instigate a fight.
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i would like to clarify this in lamish terms for all who may be concerned about this.....i recall a certian individual in AO getting upset over me doing this once in the past.....

....personally i agree with this standpoint -so what if you 'try again' with another toon, since you arent technically revenging a pk but rather trying to capture relics to benifit your faction.....

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:33 am

What if someone attacked a city, got the relic, and SUCCESSFULLY brought it back to their cradle, THEN relogged another character and did so again?

I can't possibly see how that is remotely revenge logging in any way.

kingfatzo · Post by **kingfatzo** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:35 am

exactly -- there is no way that can be considered revenge....because you arent revenging anything !!!

Post by **Yonwe** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:41 am

Fatzo puts it in dummy-speak very well

We DMs don't want to create exceptions for relic/faction raiding that are any different from any other types of PvP... we want the rules to be universal all the time. If I kill you three times out on Giant Mountain, I can't attack you again. But, if you attack me after I've killed you those three times, I can kill you in self-defense.

Likewise, if you kill me, I can't relog a toon to go out and kill you in revenge. But, if you attack me first, I can defend myself with that new toon, because you were the aggressor in that new fight. Defending your city allows you to kill someone a billion times in ten minutes without it being harassment; but it doesn't except you from the fact that people can also defend themselves at all times as well. You're never forced to defend your city or your relic; just because you can kill someone a billion times doesn't mean you didn't actually start the fight.

Poet · Post by **Poet** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:42 am

So, am I understanding that if someone relogs to try again with another toon after a failed raid, then we as defenders are allowed to defend our relic but if we hit them to do so, it will then be considered ok for them to have revenge logged and wont be called revenge logging any longer? Because if that's the case, I can imagine that you will be flooded with all sorts of screen shots soon and all kinds of people crying out "I wasnt intending to attack PCs I only went back after the relic!" I for one would take advantage of this benefit and surely run back in with a better toon or a different toon depending on how I lost to the defenders the first time, and just not swing and run out with the relic. If this is the case..great! so be it!

And of course there will be those players that antagonize this situation by grabbing the relic and standing in the town amongst the defenders and taunting them to make them attack. Wow will there ever be drama now!

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:55 am

As I said, I was personally rebukked for returning to the scene of an attempted PK with another character and took no action against my attacker. Yet this was held against me as an act of Revenge Logging when I killed him for attacking me. I see no difference in returning to the scene of a PK with another character regardless of relics. They can't call one revenge logging and not the other. Either way you know that the individual that PKed you may be there and that you may get into a conflict with that player again. I only mention this to others as this one event was brought to my attention several times by DMs and Devs so I am constantly aware of not duplicating those actions again. From what I was told, returning to the scene of an attack with another character smacks too much of revenge logging. So if I attack you while you are raiding and you return with another character to do it again how is this not revenge logging?

Another relevant passage in the link above since this has all been covered before...

TGPO wrote:Let me clear something up about my previous post as it seems some confusion was created. I'll quote a private message I just wrote to someone else.
TGPO wrote:
The relogging of another character to go back to the scene of a failed raid (relic or not) smacks to much of vengeance logging. As to relogging to res after a PK, this is a sticky one.

In reality you were just forcefully told to go somewhere else. A res at that position could very well and has lead to hunt. Especially when the person doing the res is of sufficient level to win round two ano does not log back with his original character.

Relics are in addition to the game, not the purpose of it and in no way abrogate any of the other rules. You may log to defend your city and your relic IS inside your city.

MLoki

Post by **Yonwe** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:13 am

TGPO's and mine opinion's touch on the confusing and extreme complex nature of all this stuff... I think three years of DMing NS4 should entitle you to a J.D. degree

OK, for the moment, I'm gonna lock this just so we don't cause any more confusion for the time being - we'll get us DMs together and hash out something congruent with preexisting precedent. I'm not locking it because I want to shut people up... I just don't want to complicate stuff any more than necessary so late at night! We'll unlock it tomorrow when we've got an answer.

Post by **Amoenotep** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:00 am

just want to add something here

it can't get any clearer than:

1. if you relog and attack its revenge

2. if you relog and get attacked its not

$chase$ · Post by **$chase$** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:31 am

V. Thou shall not relog a higher level character to exact revenge on a lost fight. In the case of defending your faction town, this will be allowed if you do not change faction from one char to another

if you die YOU LOST the fight.

this is the RULE has been the RULE. and will remain the RULE until you are told other wise.