Low Magic DOES NOT mean no magic

[mumoogaipan]

Okay, so after answering the last post i got to thinking about what does low magic mean. mainly because that is the response that is given to people who are requestin to have better items in the game. Even when people ask for small minor adjustments to items in the game those people who are slammed with answers like, "change class" or "low magic". But i dont think that this response is nearly effective enough at ansering the problem. To give an example of how skewed this argument is lets make a test.

-Lets take a level 20 sorcerer and pit that sorcerer against a level 20 fighter. Who wins in NS4. Thats a toughy. But lets take all those characters gear away and who wins? The Sorcerer why? Because the sorcerer and most magic classes get their abilities imbued into them as they level up. What do fighter classes(barbarian, fighter, ranger, monk, and to some extent paladin) have to do? They have to find gear whcih compliments their capabilities in order to fight. This proves that to an extent fighting classes are defined by the gear that they wear and use.

Next, now that we have established that fighting characters need items and are somewhat dependent on the items they have in order to fight PvP, lets looks at the items the fighter classes get. Any fighter class at level 9 will get an item which does 1d8 dmg and it might add to skills. This standard applies to a fighter with a sword, a monk with gloves, or a barbarian with an axe. All of those classes get 1d8 damage. Why, because this is a low magic server items have magic restricted.

Now, lets look at the magic classes. They dont even have to pick up a weapon and their damage will range depending on their class. Clerics can cast inflict critical wounds which does 4d8 damage +1 per caster level. Sorcerers can cast ice storm which does 3d6 bludgeoning and 2d6 cold damage a total of 5d6.

What is a fighting class supposed to do. Multiclass into a spell caster. That is as irrational as asking the wizard to become a fighter. Why, because characters shouldn't have to switch classes to make the game work.

Now here are some of the responses i am likely to get. "change class" that was answered above. And if you are so susceptible to having everyone change classes then why not just create magic classes and get rid of the other classes.

Another thing people will say is "use different items" to this i have one point. At level 9 all fighter classes have their items restricted so that they can only deal 1d8 damage from the weapon. Also, i showed above that fighting classes need to have gear to compliment their capabilities.

Lastly, people will say "this is a low magic server" My response is this, if this is a low magic server how come only items have restricted magic. It doesn't seem like any of the magic classes get any of their maigc restricted. When a magic using class reaches level 9 they can cast up to 4d8 plus magic class ponts of damage from magic spells. A fighter will only be able to do a max of 2d8 plus strength or dex if the character uses weapon finesse as a feat. My point is this. Dont say that this is a low magic server when none of the magic from the magic using classes are being restricted.

Those are my observations and grievances. I dont wish to start a flame war, and it is not my intent to troll the forums. My purpose is to honestly bring to light some of the concerns i have for hte new NS4 beta. Please respond to my message kindly and dont disrespect one another. That only deligitimizes the argument

^_^ The Buddhist ^_^

[Mokihana]

just on your 1d8 vs the ice storm
your are forgeting a few things in your formula

1) that 1d8 is spread over multiple attacks

2) that 1d8 also has the additon of str bonus added in which rises with most chars

3) that ice storm is the only attack that round the castor gets.

[mumoogaipan]

Thats true i didnt figure in the diminished amount of spells cast for the spell casters in the 1d8 example. And i guess that makes it even to some extent. But does this trend remain throughout the levels. At level 20 is there still the same amount of parity (equality) between the two types of classes.

[sep caldessian]

Okay, so after answering the last post i got to thinking about what does low magic mean. mainly because that is the response that is given to people who are requestin to have better items in the game. Even when people ask for small minor adjustments to items in the game those people who are slammed with answers like, "change class" or "low magic". But i dont think that this response is nearly effective enough at ansering the problem. To give an example of how skewed this argument is lets make a test.

-Lets take a level 20 sorcerer and pit that sorcerer against a level 20 fighter. Who wins in NS4. Thats a toughy. But lets take all those characters gear away and who wins? The Sorcerer why? Because the sorcerer and most magic classes get their abilities imbued into them as they level up. What do fighter classes(barbarian, fighter, ranger, monk, and to some extent paladin) have to do? They have to find gear whcih compliments their capabilities in order to fight. This proves that to an extent fighting classes are defined by the gear that they wear and use.

the other classes have feats and skills that compliment their fighting. knockdown and imp. KD will pretty much end the fight. monks have innate spell resistance as well. the fighters also have multiple attacks per round, which allows the damage to add up a lot faster.

Next, now that we have established that fighting characters need items and are somewhat dependent on the items they have in order to fight PvP, lets looks at the items the fighter classes get. Any fighter class at level 9 will get an item which does 1d8 dmg and it might add to skills. This standard applies to a fighter with a sword, a monk with gloves, or a barbarian with an axe. All of those classes get 1d8 damage. Why, because this is a low magic server items have magic restricted.

Now, lets look at the magic classes. They dont even have to pick up a weapon and their damage will range depending on their class. Clerics can cast inflict critical wounds which does 4d8 damage +1 per caster level. Sorcerers can cast ice storm which does 3d6 bludgeoning and 2d6 cold damage a total of 5d6.

ok so that is 5d6 damage in one round for a mage. the fighter will have multiple attacks at 1d8 (longsword) + STR mod + 1d8 extra damage, with the potential to multiply that damage on a critical hit, in addition to the massive crit of 1d4 on the weapon. that seems fairly balanced.

What is a fighting class supposed to do. Multiclass into a spell caster. That is as irrational as asking the wizard to become a fighter. Why, because characters shouldn't have to switch classes to make the game work.

fighting classes have access to all sorts of items that cast spells per day. fighting classes get the option to choose combat feats.

Now here are some of the responses i am likely to get. "change class" that was answered above. And if you are so susceptible to having everyone change classes then why not just create magic classes and get rid of the other classes.

Another thing people will say is "use different items" to this i have one point. At level 9 all fighter classes have their items restricted so that they can only deal 1d8 damage from the weapon. Also, i showed above that fighting classes need to have gear to compliment their capabilities.

again, maybe your tactics arent the best versus a spellcaster. also, when hit, the mage has to make a concentration ceck or lose the spell he is casting, effectively doing NOTHING but take damage for that round.

Lastly, people will say "this is a low magic server" My response is this, if this is a low magic server how come only items have restricted magic. It doesn't seem like any of the magic classes get any of their maigc restricted. When a magic using class reaches level 9 they can cast up to 4d8 plus magic class ponts of damage from magic spells. A fighter will only be able to do a max of 2d8 plus strength or dex if the character uses weapon finesse as a feat. My point is this. Dont say that this is a low magic server when none of the magic from the magic using classes are being restricted.

i really dont know where people are getting the notion that this is a low magic server. i would consider (from what ive seen so far) that this mod is a moderate to high magic world. there are a PLETHORA of items with magic spells per day, potions that cast spells, smithy stores chock full of enhanced weapons, and rat droppings filled with gold.

to me...low magic means that ONLY class magic is around. the +2 weapons are HIGHLY sought after because they are so rare. some places dont even have anything other than mundane weapons. THAT is a low magic server.

Those are my observations and grievances. I dont wish to start a flame war, and it is not my intent to troll the forums. My purpose is to honestly bring to light some of the concerns i have for hte new NS4 beta. Please respond to my message kindly and dont disrespect one another. That only deligitimizes the argument

^_^ The Buddhist ^_^

thanks for the in depth discussion. i hope my points arent misconstrued as bashing on you.

[sep caldessian]

and as an addendum, compare the average HP of a fighter and a mage of the same level. the mage needs to do at least twice the HP damage to the fighter to even out % of HP lost.

[AndrewCarr]

lvl10 ranger of mine:

I get 2 attacks per round with my ranger, for 1d8 +1d8 from weapon, +1d8 from massive crits, with a crit range of 19-20, and with a +1 dmg bonus from mighty +1.

This gives 2d8 +1 dmg, with a 19-20 x3 crit modifier. Now, my attack bonus is something like 18/11 with my bow.
So what i see as the problem is this. I'd say i can hit mages pretty easily, most shots are going to hit. Most mage spells will hit me too unfortunately. Now luckily as a ranger i get elemental resists and summoned monsters. Fighters and rogues don't get these, and umd for rogues is difficult as scrolls are difficult to find.

So my ranger does 4d8+2 dmg per round, with a possibility to miss, while the mage does about the same dmg with one spell.
Here are where i think there are probs for fighters.

resists: virtually all clothing/armor and shields get it. Reducing a fighters theoritical dmg of say 4d8+str bonus to something less. Say -5 on shield rest, and -10% for armor. So now although the fighter can consistently hit well, he's doing less dmg.
Another problem is that the mage spells are mostly nukes of some sort that do dmg all at once, while fighter dmg is done throughout a round, and can miss, imo, more.

And what's worse, is now add summons. I'm sure a lvl10 wizard or sorc gets a pretty beefy summon, and a fighter gets none. That's one thing that's bad about spells atm, summons are powered up like they were in ns3, but fighters are powered down. So now the wizard/sorc effectively has a lvl10 or higher summon working for him or her, and this along with their elemental dmg. Which leads to another problem.

Unless the mage is in a long fight, they can blow their load into the tank and wipe their out with their high immediate dmg plus the summons'd dmg. Add stoneskin or ghostly visage, and most fighters now have their dmg negated or cut by a severe number, as enchanted weapons aren't too powerful at lvl10. So this leads the fighter to either fight a replaceable summon who's most likely stronger, or attack a mage who on top of resists from equipment, has resists from spells. Who also does as much dmg as the fighter does, in a short time, which makes healing more difficult.

I hope these problems make sense now. Like i said though, my ranger seems to do pretty well because he hasn't capped his spells yet and still has higher summons to look forward to, and also has defensive spells like protection from elements.



P.S. Forgot about potions. Think of what potions are common: healing, ghostly visage, bless, mage armor. Spell mantle ones are relatively rare along with elemental resist ones. Thus fighters get bless, which lets them hit more, but that's not too much of a help, since they can usually hit imo. Ghostly visage does what? protects them a little from melee summons and from magic missle(i believe vs magic missle). Pretty useless. And then mage armor, +ac, does virtually nothing vs mages, but helps mages vs tanks, as does ghostly visage.

[AndrewCarr]

I should've organized this better, but here's another prob. Range. A mage can cast haste on themself and kite a melee as they're ranged. A melee will have to rely on haste potions of items(found one haste potion so far, and no items) which only negates the caster's new found invulnerability. And even without this, the caster still will get a spell or two off by the time the fighter reaches them, in which case they've taken 8d8 dmg, which hurts quite a bit.

[mumoogaipan]

Thank you for being civil and for keeping this to a discussion based thread. I have appreciated the comments i have received so far and would like to keep them comming.

As per the first part of what sep said. I still think that fighter classes will require gear as per the example. A barb without gear fighting a sorcerer with out gear is used to illustrate the point that fighting classes need to have gear to compliment their fighting capabilities.

As per the second argument about 5d6 damage once a round: The thing is that fighters at level 9 (the same time a mage can cast 5d6 damage) will only get two attacks with the current gear they would get a max of 4d8 (2d8 for one attack and 2d8 for another attack) However, the items in the game also provide damage reduction i.e. DR bludg 5/- or something to that effect which will decraease the fighter's damage as a whole. Now assuming that both characters are level 9 and we average their life (without constitution bonuses) the fighter has 60 life and the sorcerer would have 36. Lets say that both characters attacks get hits including both of the fighters atacks. the fighter takes 15 damage and the sorcerer would take 16 damage. But remember the sorcerer is wearing gear (this isnt the scenario of the two level 20's without gear) which has dmg reduction. Thus the fighter gets his/her damage reduced by at least 4-5 points. and is only dealing out 11-12 damage. Yet again i think sep has a point here and that is that the mage only has so much life, and will die faster than the fighter.

As far as the low magic realm is concerned, if this is a high magic area then it should be posted when fighters will get out of the menial items blues. Because at level nine if a fighting class(any fighting class) buys weapons they will do a max of 2d8 dmg.

Also, i think that Sep and Moki are doing good to justify why the items are okay in the game thus far. But one last thing i would like to know is what do you consider to be a good magical item as far as weapons are concerned. I personally think that a weapon that deals 1d8 dmg plus 2 fire damage or sonic damage is a good level 9 weapon. But if there are any high level characters on NS4, could you state what types of weapons should be given to lvl 30-40 characters. I imagine really good weapons that do quite a bit of damage like 8-10d6 dmg. But that is because i consider the level 30-40 category of characters to be near gods because of deities book for the paper and pencil version of d&d.

Thanks again for all the comments thus far

[Daltian]

Ppl, you are way out of line. this is not about dmg/round. You are forgetting mind spells, death spells. Tanks are dead when they meet a caster in pvp.

The only thing that can save the fighter is another caster buffing him!

[mumoogaipan]

oops sorry, i forgot to thank Andrew carr for his insight into the matter, so thanks andrew. but i also forgot to mention the tactics which go into fighting a mage character when characters are fighter classes. I think it is easy to slip into a invisibility spell in order to sneak attack a mage, or gang up on the mage with a couple of your buds but some people could have problems with doing that. Some people like to role play their character and thus would find ethical dilemas to some solutions of wiping out mages or mages wiping out fighters. Also, i dont think that merely switching weapons helps the problem. If you have the best weapon from the shop you will do 4d8 +strength when you damage a character. But this also gets widdled down against the armor of the mage. I dunno. If some people could post how to get around this problem then that would be good. I think it would be helpful for people to know how to fight against a magic using class and for the magic using class to know how to fight against the fighter classes. Maybe that will help everyone who don't like the Item Level Restrictions (ILR's). Personally, i dont think that the ILR's are that bad. I just dont want the items i get now to be the same throughout the game. I would hope that when i get my monk to level 40 i have items which do massive amounts of damage.

Also, what do people feel this world is like. Is it a high magic medium magic or low magic world. Maybe it is a mix. If so i would like to know. Thanks

[AndrewCarr]

low magic world with a bad item spread.

The problem with sneaking: the TC helmsmith at least sells a see invis helm. lvl5 req as i recall. Also grants darkvision. Can be used 10x. Pretty much makes much invisibility useless. And aside from that, many casters gain true seeing, or invisibility purge. Hell, my ranger can cast it.

And like i said before, even if the sneaking works, unless the person's dumb and running around without self buffs, then they'll have stoneskin as a druid up(at 9th lvl assumin) which blocks 10 dmg. unless someone has a hidden +5 weapon around.. This takes the fighter's dmg down to 1-2, unless they crit. Clerics will have bonus hp, summons, true seeing, and i'd assume protection from elements and magic circle vs alignment(which is effective as most factions are clearly evil or good). And then they can nuke you and defend with a shield. Sorcs can use stoneskin as well by 9th lvl, 4x if they really need it. Otherwise they can lvl drain, curse, and fire or icestorm you, and have one slot left for stoneskin. wizards likewise will have stoneskin and can summon several powerful creatures or just use elemental shield on themselves. Or they could do 9d6 dmg to you & any friends with cone of cold. So there's why, imo, sneaking up on someone either won't work because they'll resist it all, or because they'll see you. And either way, you'll be destroyed.

[mumoogaipan]

As far as instant death spells are concerned, i think that was always a threat to tanks. Mainly because the fighting classes are susceptible to magic and magic classes are susceptible to being pummeled. It is a perfect balance. The question is wether or not the design of NS4 has offest that balance. I think it has due to the decreased dmg capabilities of items.

[sep caldessian]

Ppl, you are way out of line. this is not about dmg/round. You are forgetting mind spells, death spells. Tanks are dead when they meet a caster in pvp.

The only thing that can save the fighter is another caster buffing him!

thats a HUGE generalization with a lot of assumptions.

sure there are mind spells, but most have saves associated with them. its sad that a lot of fighter types neglect the WIS stat.

a mage knocked on his back is at the mercy of the fighter.

[AndrewCarr]

Simple solution for the mage. Stay away from the fighter. Let pets slow him down, get in the way, etc. And use slow and spells like it to hurt them even more in the chase. Then you nuke them away, or lifedrain them, or whatever. Actually, a very simple way i'd think to stop most fighters is curse them or drain their str since many people run around with cluttered inventories, which means near capacity inventories. The mage can then protect from knockdown to an extent. But how can a lvl 9 fighter do against various saves? reflex for nukes, will for mind affecting, and fort for poisons etc that can ruin their ability to fight. And besides, by sacrificing int or something else(not cha as that's most likely dropped alrdy) then the fighter loses even more fighting ability just for +2 to will saves, which really won't do much, especially if they have a lot of low lvl will spells flying their way.

[ATI]

Its a really simple challenge, put a lvl 20 caster and a lvl 20 tank NAKED against each other in NS4....What do you get? I'm guessing the fighter with 200+hp is only doing 5-6 damage a round (mean concentration isn't a problem) and the wizard casts IGMS twice and its over.

Some people say there are feats that characters can choose that make fighters better......LAST TIME I CHECKED, there is no feat that gives more damage without significant drawbacks, like power attack...its great to do 5 more damage, and NOT hit anything. Furthermore, Cep you talk about how using feats hones the ability of the fighter, thats not remotely true. At best, before lvl 20 a fighter can add 1 to his AB from a feat, and 2 to damage per attack for weapon specialization and weapon focus. After that, there is nothign to hone the fighting, sure te fighter might get +2 to reflex, have thoughness, and also have some expertise in other weapons, but that still doesn't add up to what a caster can do. Keep in mind, if you have a maximized IGMS thats nearly 140 damage that can't be saved, and the fighter can't naturally resist that damage. I'd say thats inequality.

However, more importantly is the debate about Not allowing magic items to define the character....>I say this, to all those people.... BULLOCKS to that! The thing that defines a fighter, a rogue, a ranger, a barbarian is the skill AND the weapon the fighter is using. Look at Kill Bill 2, you think Beatrice would be any good without a Hatori Hanzo sword? What about a samurai? before ever fighting a samurai ensures their weaponry is paramount to the best by sharpening, refolding, re hilting the sword after every combat (in most cases, there are some lazy samurai back in the 13th century, but they got killed quickly). My point is that if magic is what defines a caster, then what defines the fighter? His ability to use lots of stuff? A regular human char can at least use lots of simple weapons...Its not the amount of crap the character can use, its the weapon he's using that makes the fighter that much better.. In the ancient tales you don't read about thieves trying to steal a weapon that didn't do anything! You read about trying to find the best item to the world, and then doing what you can with that item.

Our fears of letting items define the character seem baseless. So what if a character wants to define himself by the swords he uses...what does that do to the game? So what if the ultimate personal quest of a character is to weild a sword capable of making him master of Neversummer?

To Conclude my points

1: Magic casters are defined by the magic they cast (seems obvious enough)

2: Fighters are defined by the tools they use to show their exemplary abilities at fighting. Thats the way it works in real life. Kung Fu Joe exemplifies himself through his own body, the samurai, through the sword and archery.

3: What is a really low magic server?

4: There is a bad item spread that is hurting non casters, which, not to fault the devs, is simply artifical inflation of the difficutly of the game. It shouldn't be hard to find good weapons to help you lvl in your current area, the monsters should be hard, not the items in which you use to get them (until you get to the ultimate items).

5: If we are in a low magic lvl, then how come casters get to use lvl 9 spells? Maybe, if we want to be true to low magic, we should make the cap go to lvl 4 spells at lvl 20 for wizards/clerics/sorcs/bards/druids, so that its a TRUE low level magic spread. (See how many people like THAT equality).

6: Its easy to say that low level is great for RP elements, but you shouldn't force it on the players(especially considering its still persistent action), in fact the game should be balanced for every character to play the game and enjoy fully (with some challenges unique to those classes). Gil -Este says why not just flip a coin....well go ahead, and thats not an argument and its also not a reason against balancing the server a bit. Forcing players to have to join parties in order to get places, although it makes sense, isn't a game play design, its a lack of ingenuity. You shouldn't force players at all to do things that aren't expressly stated in the server details.

From what it seems like now casters are the favored class becuase of the ease of play. If it stays like this I see two things becomming inevitable

1: a) Players leave because its not what we expect from a Persistent Action server. If its about the action, then don't force us to be RPers. If its about RP then fine, we understand.

1: b) I can see players deciding to leave because the devs simply ignore these problems which would be tragic. YOu look at these posts and obviously people are upset. You can say, quite yer bitchin all you want, but if people start to leave, maybe something is wrong.

2: Most definetly players will only play the casters leaving a whole slew of chars out of the development. If you're favoring casters in the beta, then why not just take away the fighter classes and call the game MAgic Fun Land!(which seems to contradict the low magic theme) Balance says your sorry