Word of Faith balance?

[-BannyD-]

Im sure everyone is going to say im whining but oh well, this spell needs a fix. It can single handedly mean the difference between a win or loss in PvP and is way overpowered

Lets have a look at bioware bigbys and this current Word of Faith.

Application: Bigbys is cast -> Bigbys hits single target.
WoF is cast -> WoF hits all targets in collosal range

Range: Bigbys is single target normal spell range. (100ft?)
WoF is collosal (think meteor shower size) AoE spell that can be cast at same range as Bigbys (unlock meteor shower, it doesnt get cast in an area around the caster)

Damage: Bigbys can do an assortment of effects but lets use crushing hand, grappled vs strength check (that was incredibly high) + 2d6+12 dmg a round
WoF gives blindness, allowing anyone attacking the victim sneak attacks, the ability to bypass uncanny dodge or dodge ac (not sure which, or both), gives the victim a very small spectrum of vision and 50% chance to miss anything

Prevention: Bigbys - Spell Resistance, Spell Mantle, Immunity to Paralysis
WoF - Spell Resistance, Spell Mantle

Removal: Bigbys - Dismissal (NS implemented, available on rods that release charges faster than scrolls, casted by Bard, Cleric, Mage). AoE spell that removes a single target effect, allowing for removal of multiple bigbys.
WoF - greater restoration (available on slow release scrolls, casted by Cleric), remove blindess (available on slow release scrolls, casted by Paladin, Cleric, Mage). AoE spell that removes an AoE effect, only allowing removal of 1 WoF.

Spell Level: Bigbys Crushing Hand - Level 9
Word of Faith - Level 7

Now I ask you to put aside biases and compare these spells. Then take into consideration which spell has been modified on NS4, and tell me honestly WoF is not overpowered.

I do not know what should be done to this spell but something must as its current condition is overwhelming, though I have some ideas.

1) Same effect, single target spell (similar to how implosion was changed), possible longer duration
2) Same effect, small AoE, same duration
3) Same effect, fort or will save added, same duration
4) Stun effect, will save added, same duration
5) Stun effect, will save added, small AoE, longer duration
6) Stun effect, no save, single target, same duration
7) Perhaps some save related to skills like Bigbys is now.
8 ) Limit the alignment WoF effects based on the casters alignment

Suggestions/Comments welcome...keep flames and spam away please.

[Thorac]

well to me there is nothing wrong with it as it is a saving grace vs alot of creatures and if you dont like in PvP then dont PvP with clerics .

[-BannyD-]

if you dont like in PvP then dont PvP with clerics .

thats impossible in NS4

well to me there is nothing wrong with it as it is a saving grace vs alot of creatures.

have you ever wondered -why- it is a saving grace perhaps? it is because it is so powerful. the devs didnt design epic areas to be soloable yet this spell allows for it since the mobs run into the same problems PCs do. its instant blind for a decent duration to a huge AoE. Bigbys could never disable a horde of monsters at once (they had a better chance saving vs old crushing since monsters tend to have huge strength than PCs) nor PCs...with the spell changes to Bigbys its not even possible to disable 1 monster, and rather difficult vs a good epic toon.

even if that mage did disable the same amount of creature...compare the amount of spell slots used for the cleric and mage.

now im not trying to turn this into a mage vs cleric thread, just pointing out that a similarly powerful spell was already modified; WoF has not been.

[Death Dealer1]

WoF also dispells summons in the AoE. epic summons have to make a save, but i've never seen a summon fail. it is truly one of the most powerful cleric spells ever and does need attention.

[Thorac]

well i cant disable any of the Slave or Brethren toons just get bashed again and again so i have given up on the PvP here and the relics , not your guys fault just not many higher lvl SL members. So WoF is like a retreating thing for me or yes a solo thing on the planes, but on soloing what if you like it that way this server is hard enough what with no xfer abilities and every epic critter having mords or ts or uv i mean you wanna look at a hack look at bards lol now there is an overpowered class so being able to blind someone for a sort while while you try kill them isnt so bad as in my experience it always goes slaves or brethrens way in the end.

[mgrjebbo]

besides Fatzo i am probley the biggest cleric user here or if not close. and its sad to say but i agree banny on this one it is way over powered. possible fixes anyone?

i was thinking maybe 1. remove the blindess effect or 2. and i dont really like this idea but make epic summons more dissmisable by other spells and remove the dismiss effect from WoF. or make them immune to dismiss all togeather. which i think should be put into effect anyway considering that they are after all an epic summon and do require a huge commitment to get.

[-BannyD-]

well i cant disable any of the Slave or Brethren toons just get bashed again and again so i have given up on the PvP here and the relics , not your guys fault just not many higher lvl SL members. So WoF is like a retreating thing for me or yes a solo thing on the planes, but on soloing what if you like it that way this server is hard enough what with no xfer abilities and every epic critter having mords or ts or uv i mean you wanna look at a hack look at bards lol now there is an overpowered class so being able to blind someone for a sort while while you try kill them isnt so bad as in my experience it always goes slaves or brethrens way in the end.

yes this came about from lots of PvP with the brethren but that doesnt matter. the spell is overpowered. it requires no thought in its use as you just have to click the ground and everything on screen is blind. it is not my fault you do not have enough cleric levels to withstand a mords, perhaps it is a weakness in the build? It still sounds like you are wanting a toon that can do everything without trying. so with the buffs to epic mobs you have found WoF...and can achieve that goal, still not what i think the devs had in mind about the epic areas...

and please keep it on topic, start another thread if you want to bash bards, Slaves, and Brethren.

[Thorac]

not bashing anyone just stating things and you guys say it is overpowered when all it does is blind and maybe unsummon some nasties how is that overpowered all you need to do is dispell yourself and pop no more blindness seems fair .

[kingfatzo]

yes this came about from lots of PvP with the brethren but that doesnt matter.

auctually i would argue that line there, the only reason this issue matters to you IS because of your pvp vs us and the rest of LA...and if i may add, The DD used to use wof on their many raids against NS pre-wipe and we coped with it just like anyone else can.....if it bothers you that much, then keep your clerics close to you !

in theory , WoF can be 'dismissed' just as easily as a bigby.... click spell - bam -- gone.... BUT in reality, then again can it be dismissed as well as a BB --- NO , if i were to fail a bb save im screwed, whereas the WoF can always be removed providing i have the proper spell slotted -- Thus, mentioning BB and WoF in the same line seems silly...regardless of its AoE effect, a WoF can never be as effective as a bigby -providing the bigbied person fails the save...which is often the case with the well built mages on the server...

Please ! for the love of god ! leave the spells the way they are -- and (directed to more than one person across the board---) stop looking for ways to 'modify' a spell, often it leads to a worse outcome than we had before......i have a feeling this is going to turn into a 5-6 page thread like the BB one did..... oh well....

----If i may add everyone (including myself) is out to give themselves the optimal advantage , it is rare we find unbiased posts regarding spells, weapons, etc..... but the thing is, i really think the devs have got the balances between spells - and other things very well.....they could change the effect of WoF 8 zillion times and still there will be an unhappy person out there --somewhere.....

[Sparky]

I honestly doubt any changes will be forthcoming, but if they were, these would probably be the most likely changes.

1. Lower the AOE by one or two steps.
2. Lower the Die rolled for blindness by 1.
3. Add a Will save to prevent blindess, with spellcraft and Protection from spells not applying.

I could see a combination of any of those three possibilities, but unless you find DeputyDog's characters and WoF them into oblivion, I doubt anything will be done with the spell.

[Binkyuk]

Making the AOE smaller would be good - meaning you can't blind an entire party in one shot unless they're very bunched up.
but fatzo is right, a Bigby disables while a WoF only blinds you, worst case you can run in the other direction until it expires (which i remember doing very often 'cos I never keep remove blindness memed - sigh), and as most clerics aren't known for their awesome ranged damage potential it's not usually too terrible if they're alone.

----If i may add everyone (including myself) is out to give themselves the optimal advantage , it is rare we find unbiased posts regarding spells

This is true, but odd (and somewhat idiotic IMO). Everyone can build the same characters (unless you're heavily behind one faction), so I don't see why you'd have a bias. Oh well.

[Alain]

Prevention: Bigbys - Spell Resistance, Spell Mantle, Immunity to Paralysis
WoF - Spell Resistance, Spell Mantle

SR and mantle dont stop bigbys

Now I ask you to put aside biases and compare these spells. Then take into consideration which spell has been modified on NS4, and tell me honestly WoF is not overpowered.

They have both been modified in NS4. Originally WoF would stun a person, the Devs felt that blinding them gave them a chance to run, and thus making it not overpowered anymore.

As for my opinion. I think it is a good spell that should stay as-is. with the changes in spells since the wipe clerics are no longer the physical powerhouse they were, ad anything that promotes spellcasting clerics is a good thing.

[Falazure-]

Making it a will save would promote a caster cleric's ability over some of the common melee cleric's wouldnt it ? If you think blindness isnt bad or its easy to get rid of,try getting rid of 10-15 or more wof spams,thats a lot of running and waiting to do.

[Charles I]

I've been spending some time in Earth plane and guardians frquently cast WoF as 3rd or 4th spell. The result, I'm blinded. What do I do? Move away from the monsters until it wears off or get myself into melee range and accept that monster has some concealment, no different than fighting something with improved invisbility. Is it a pain to be blind? Yes, but it can be dealt with. If it's a big problem for you, take the Blind-Fight feat. Being blind is much better than being stunned, at least you can do something. Maybe reduce AoE one step, other than that, don't see need for change. If you are worried about it's use in PvP. Don't bunch up, get your own cleric.

PS. If you haven't noticed, I have no sympathy for anyone that complains they cannot solo something.

[MLoki]

My suggestion which BannyD mentioned was to change the effect to only work on opposing alignments. I believe it is alignment based in the PnP version. This would make alignment matter a bit more then just what summons you have and it would make the spell caster actually have to think about who or what he is fighting before spamming away with the spell. As a cleric, alignment really should come into play more since you are upholding your dieties beliefs and perhaps your diety may not help a LG cleric as much if he attacks another LG character for example.

I do agree that this spell should have some attention put to it since I don't see many clerics that don't have several of these spells slotted. Yes it helps with PvM but that is kindof the point. If Darkness was deemed too powerfull then why is a similiar affect that you can't run out of and has no preventative buff, not too powerfull?

MLoki