regarding dms.....

[KST_HAVOK]

Now just to make this clear this thread is NOT a whine. Or a gripe. And is not oen to flames. This is simply a discussion about some things that I feel the dms as a whole should work on.

1) ok the other day me and kromix wer in FD and decided we wantes to see if the guard would drop there halbred in the inn. So we attacked them. Within 5 minutes the "frostdale protector" asked kromox what he thought he was doing. And that hostile actions were not allowewd in FD. Ok cool no prob no hostile actions in fd.

Now the other day I was in Fd and a dm controlled penguin attacked and debuffed me. I got a little pissed off and I probally got a little more heated than I should have.

I think the dms should get together and have a chat considering rules and regulations considering we were under the impresion that FD is a no hostility area and now gives off the impression that dms can do whatever they want with no reprecussions since I was "attacked" in fd. Now I know it was all in fun and to the dm I got in a argument I'm sorry.

This also brings me to my next point.

During the argument I had on irc with this dm I was told "so your mad that we won't let you use an exploit" which was then in turn told bu a higher dm that what we were doing was not an ezploit. That then erupted into a argument where I was told "well without your darkness you wouldn't be able to be there anyways"

Now since when did it become a dms job to tell you your build is too strong and then make it harder for you to level.

It just so happens that the next time I'm on all of a sudden all on the arctic wolves learn how to cast uv ...... And learn how to chase you around corners and learn how to attack the one person in the group with darkness.

Now I know there are people out there that get upset when they see a level 5 or 6 in an area where they them selves are getting beat down at level17plus

Now I don't want to complain but the last 5 times I have been on between this morning and last night this has so happened to only been directed to kst members...

I have a drow friend who showed me this leveling stratgy and he has been doing it himself for the past 2 days and has noticed nothing wronng and has had no complications whatsoever..

So in short I feel if the dms want to try to use npcs to kill players so they loose xp and gold and to make themselves feel better I think it should be directed to everyone not just kst...

And if you are going to post something like havook always whines or boo hoo kst something or other please don't cause I kromix sirus zell autokill balls and others were all on and have seen the same thing.

I would appreciate some feed back and please do not turn this into flames I don't want it locked.

[Go'f]

I too have had monsters suddenly start to use UV against my Drow after disagreements with DM's your not alone on that. Altough I rather enjoyed the challange and I Quickly came up with an alternative strategy that worked at the time, if I had none then I would probibly not enjoyed that at all.

This trick negates the main (ECL) ability of a low level charactor and it would be nice if DM's playing that tactic rewarded players who can still play along with an XP bonus or some other little reward.

[KST_HAVOK]

Exactly.....

If the DM involved let us know ahead of time or offered a raise when you die ( didn not happen considering i died alone myself at least 5 imes ) then it would be cool. Or at least only do it a couple of times and then be done with it....

and also i too think it is rather wierd that i got into a argument with the dm and then all of a sudden these wolves are acting retarded

[trent]

Moral of he story .... Stay out of the epic areas with non-epic chars.



Seems easy enough to understand from my point of view. And I do belive the exploit in which you where talking about was the use of the darkness token in order to kill epic monsters in a fashion where they couldn't fight back to gain uber xp. That seems easy to understand as well.

[KST_HAVOK]

Moral of he story .... Stay out of the epic areas with non-epic chars.



Seems easy enough to understand from my point of view. And I do belive the exploit in which you where talking about was the use of the darkness token in order to kill epic monsters in a fashion where they couldn't fight back to gain uber xp. That seems easy to understand as well.

Considering you cant read ill explain it better to you ....

NETROM SAID IT WAS NOT A EXPLOIT.......

and it doesnt matter where you level. If you can take hard zons at level 4 go fot it. If you can SD the whole city of NS at level 7 have fun..

Noone else gets shunned cause of there power builds so i dont think in essencs its fair to shun one particular group...

[Death Dealer1]

i've seen a lvl 4 get a talking to because they had darkness going on their drow wiz and casting off scrolls..killing ns gaurds for super xp. i've seen both sides and all i have to say is, its a slippery slope sometimes, just roll with it and see where it lands you.

[Metis]

Noone else gets shunned cause of there power builds so i dont think in essencs its fair to shun one particular group...

The higher ups can deal with the other statements but this one, regardless of whats going on in game the DM's do not stand around your particular group and think of ways to ruin your fun.

changes, DM involvement, modifications do not center around your "group"

[TGPO]

OK, what I'm not going to do is get into details of recent discussions behind closed doors.

I will tell you that where and when possible the DM and Dev team prefer to find a solution to issues via scripting instead of making more posts about what is and isnt allowed. That being said, you will understand when I say that we will rarely declare openly something is an exploit. We take note of a problem or issue, discuss if it is something we need to do something about, toss ideas around as to how to handle it, finally turning the dev types loose to try and put in a fix.

As a rule of thumb for players, if you think you have found a way to get around or use script or engine limitations to get by. You have more than likely found an exploit level bug. It also means that when you use it mercilessly you are driving the DM team to pulling their hair out while a fix is decided and implented. Exploits do not need declared by DMs, your intelligent folks and are SUPPOSED to be reporting these things instead of abusing them until we can get them fixed.

They wont be declared an exploit until such time as all possible scripted solutions have been exhausted. That however does not stop the DMs from getting very frustrated while waiting. Nor am I calling any issue here an exploit or not. Just the process we go through in trying to fix problems as they crop up.

[Eldaric]

My my. I must have missed something.

(Runs off to get all NWN stuff out of boxes - comes back checking over them all carefully).

Yep - it's still just a game. Not even the Diamond edition has the warning of "Directly relatable to real life".

Perhaps my cynicism needs some explanation. I was a DM once - long ago back in the "dark ages" of AD&D 2nd Edition. Every now and then, our "little" group (of an average of 12 "dedicated" members) would get someone joining us.

These "Noobs" would fall into one of 3 categories; the "Dice Rollers" who didn't RP very well - but enjoyed the game none the less; the "RPers"; and the "Lawyers".

We all hated the Lawyers. These were the ones that came with their own copies of every book from the Players Handbook, through to the DMG and Unearthed Arcana (and every Forgotten Worlds book that they could find even though we were not "Forgotten Worlds" based).

The Lawyers were easy to spot - they were the ones that would at every oportunity bang their 4 foot high stack of manuals and tomes and cry "Show me where in the rules it says I can't do that". They would immediately call a halt to play as soon as the party encountered a creature that deviated even a tiny bit from the "Listed" specs for a creature "The Kobold has to be dead - I just did 5 points of damage - and Kobolds only have a maximum of 4 HP - hence it has to be dead."

The Lawyers were quick to pick up on any "unfairness" that disadvantaged them specifically - but as usual, slow to pick up on the numerous fudges that were done to save them - you know - the fireballs that just happen to do 1 point less than total HP (so even if they failed their saves they don't die). The amount of time that "my" wizards rolled crap for fireballs and lightning bolts was amazing!

I had a solution for the people that were "too lawyerfied". I'd ensure that they found a powerfull magic item - with one hidden curse - it prevented the wearer from being raised or resurrected - only reincarnation worked if they died while wearing it - and once a character died while wearing it of course it lost all it's "usefull" powers.

However, this is the good old pencil and paper days - where late nights, bottomless coffee cups and "Creeping Crud" were the order of the day. In the digital age - things change a bit. We don't have DM's "controlling every beat of the dungeons heart" as it were. However, we still have the "Lawyers" - those that find an exploit - and use it to their own gain.

This leads to an imbalance where the "Lawyers" exploit the system to the detriment of the other players. So the DM's step in and maintain the balance.

All sounds fair to me.

[Shieldcracker]

(13:59:53) []: question...if darkness DOESNT effect ice giants ?...then why cant you go there without it at lvl 11
(14:00:25) Havok|pissed: if you have a awesome summon with prayed and the negatives from darkness you can accually attack them with minimal damage
(14:00:37) Havok|pissed: and throw some spells at them before you rush in
(14:00:37) Lordvan526|AFK: they dont stand around like idiots after you hit em, but they dont attack right off either
(14:01:00) Lordvan526|AFK: and the 50% miss helps alot
(14:01:08) Havok|pissed: yeah
(14:01:21) Havok|pissed: just cause i have crazy level 11 build is no reason to hate lol
(14:01:26) Lordvan526|AFK: i prefer darkness over Imp invis cause of the lack of initial attacks
(14:01:28) []: so at lvl 11 you need darkness to do ice giants that are alot higher lvl then you?
(14:01:35) Havok|pissed: yeah
(14:01:40) Havok|pissed: <<<<< powergamer
(14:01:46) Havok|pissed: i like challenges
(14:01:56) Havok|pissed: level 11 soloing ice giants is a challenge

(emphasis mine - hilarity havok's)

Man, just drop it. You like to see how far you can push the rules, and when the DMs come up with creative ways (wolves with UV? wut? o_O ) to illustrate where they want the rules to be, the correct response is not to complain about where you think the rules ought to be set. Quit trying to see how much you can get away with before someone calls foul.

This isn't an issue of "the DMs think your build is too strong," this is an issue of your character being completely ineffective without one singular gimmick. And this certainly isn't an issue of "the DMs are unfairly picking on KST" - this is just what you guys do. You're a guild full of guys who know how to min-max like pros. That carries with it a reputation for knowing how to game the system - and unfortunately, that annoys some of the DMs and Developers who enjoy this thing called "game balance."

So, congratulations! You've been pulling the same stunts for so long that when a DM logs on, they know to watch you, because you're likely to do something worth punishing. Like leveling an 11th level cleric in Frostdale. I mean, the DMs can't be everywhere at once, but they're not stupid: they're going to pick up on patterns and act accordingly.

[Poet]

Well, Ive made a login on the irc channel and have found that it has become useful to figure out which DM has it in for someone, and watch what happens in the posts...it has become very clear that several times, a DM has "implemented changes" to an area that only affects certain players. Then this DM will log off , and pretend that the effects dont continue if he logs in as a "player".
When he is called out about it either in shout or on irc, the server suddenly does an unannounced reset, to cover his tracks...
This has interrupted play for me several times in this manner.
I have had this happen to my characters and have seen it deliberately happen to others. This affects everyone on the server and I'm sorry to be the one to point it out but putting time or money in or not, DMs should not be allowed to abuse a player or group or use the server in this manner.
Those young players that are always a concern may be the ones caught in a bad area and suffer the xp loss after this type of reset and this isnt any more fair to them than having to listen to the foul language...
Again, No one should be allowed to USE the server and its players for their own immature amusement in this manner.


As always,
Poet

[MLoki]

Ok just to clarify, in PnP D&D it is suggested that a CR 16 creature (Tundra Wolves) should take a group of 4 16th level characters 1/4 of their resources. (ie Hit Points, Spells, ect...) A group of 3 Tundra Wolves would make an Encounter Level [EL] of 18th+ but would still not be considered an "Epic Encounter". The DMG also suggests that 13 or so of these encounters should be enough to level a character. Obviously this is not PnP D&D because a group of characters killing anything of equal level is not going to be leveling every 13th kill. So this forces us to try and fight bigger and badder things as soon as we think we can take them. Even if it means making a build just to be able to kill things that another build would never be able to handle. Drow using Darkness to kill things over their level just justifies the ECL that they have. So a 5th level drow with an ECL of 3 is taking on a 16th level creature. I have seen many Rogues or Monks with Imp Evasion start taking on Tundra Wolves well before any Fighter could. Is it wrong that their build works against this particular creature and others don't? Clerics and Mages with the Undeath to Death spell take on Vampires well before Fighters or Rogues can. Druids use Stone Hold to disable weak willed creatures that are too tough even for Mages. Are those exploits too? Perhaps some things need to be worked out with the Drow Darkness but nerfing it to the point of uselessness just makes the ECL unjustified. Characters with ECLs have a hard enough time as it is, their is no reason to make their leveling any tougher by nullifying the one thing that makes them usefull.

MLoki

[TGPO]

OK ignoring Elderic's spot on post for a moment.

Does anyone remember when my signature line read "Give me those PnP rule books so I can smack you with them?"

No disrespect MLoki, as I know from conversations with you that you are an intelligent individual and can probably argue either side of this discussion with equal competance.

Your last post has very little to do with NWN for several reasons. First is that this is a CRPG and as such your combat sequences move much much faster, a battle of a few moments in game could have taken half an hour or more in PnP. So your experiance for the encounter will be commensuratly lower. Second is the stock system that NWN uses for its EL is so much crap, so we dont use it. You will notice that the mobs dont scale much at all for character or party level. Even so, even in PnP EL is a useless referant due to the fact that the abilities of different classes scale differently from one another in regards to individual CR. What could take out a tank with little difficulty is easily defeated by a mage of much lower level and vice verse.

I can make and have made a CR13 mob that was capable of chasing and defeating a party of 2 or 3 level 40's. Using none of the sneaky DM tricks other than STR and CON tweaks, and then equiping them with gear that can be found around the module. When I was done the computer rated them CR13 and called it a day.

I could go on like this for a long time. Lets just say that the PnP books are great for referance material, as long as thats all its used for. Pulling specifics out as examples falls flat on its face though as this is not a true conversion but rather a game based upon a rough approximation. A very rough approximation.

As for Drow and being ECL3, its not the darkness that causes that ECL. However on terms of game play ECL is a experiance level equivalent, this does not indicate that the character will or should be able to take on adversaries that much higher than them. Rather a penalty impossed for additional abilities beyond those of the base human model that are not offset by deficiencies in other areas.

This next comment is not for any one in particular, but for the before mentioned rules and books lawyers. Its something that any competant PnP DM can fall back upon when being bludgeoned. Look in the first few pages of your DMG and you will find that as long as consistantly applied the books can be over ridden, or "House rules".

Its why we perfer scripted solutions to problems so we dont get caught up baby sitting or having multiple people applying their interperatation of said rules. in the end though House Rules wins, and not putting to fine a point on it, your in our house when you play here. We do our best to keep it enjoyable for as many players at a time as we possibly can and we recognize that we can not keep everyone happy constantly. Some people choose to leave, some choose to adapt themselves to the community and enjoy in a way they hadnt initially thought, and in rare cases we invite people to explore other modules by kicking them out and not letting them come back. We have a vision for where and what this world is, it does adapt from time to time, however that vision today is essentially the same as when we started. The players we have today may well not be here next year, we all move on, even I at some point know I will step down.

Hmm I should end this thread now, I just realized I have been rambling for some time.

*note to self, dont make large posts when very tired*

[MLoki]

Obviously this is not PnP D&D

I have seen many Rogues or Monks with Imp Evasion start taking on Tundra Wolves well before any Fighter could.

Clerics and Mages with the Undeath to Death spell take on Vampires well before Fighters or Rogues can.

Druids use Stone Hold to disable weak willed creatures that are too tough even for Mages.

I was referencing CR to make people understand that it is a guideline and not a level requirement to be able to kill something... I really wasn't trying to get your PnP panties in a bunch TGPO... I will never mention the real D&D again.

MLoki

[Ragefist]

Here's the two cents from a PnP gamer and an old school NS4'er (sorta, time off for good behavior/real life still counts, right?) --

Yeah it sucks that a DM may have decided to watch you b/c they feel that your actions are skirting the edge of systematic abuse. So they give a few mobs, or hell, all the mobs on a screen a buff and send em at you. If they kill you, it's more than likely that the DM will intervene again and toss you a rez -- assuming you, the player, have not gotten overly pissed about being defeated by mobs with much higher CR's than you should be facing anyway. Long story short, it's a somewhat funny way to send a message to you -- Get ye back to the lands whence ye came, mortal.

As to the implied "abuse" on the part of a DM -- the devs chose a gods/goddesses model for NS4 for several reasons. To the best of my limited knowledge, one of these reasons was to simulate a PnP-esque god interaction system. Sure, you can gripe and moan or plead and cajole all you want, but the gods of DnD are fickle, vain, and in some cases, outright insane. You can't have it both ways -- the goddesses either walk the material plane and have a little fun, sometimes at the expense of mortals, or they are utterly absent and should not offer quests, rewards, punishment, or any sort of fun to anyone. In the end, it comes down to <gasp> actual roleplay preference on the part of a DM. Llolth really is certifiably insane in the DnD universe -- if she were to show up outside a lowbie area and decide to start level draining people to death, it would be sort of par for the course -- that's what the crazy wench does when she walks her Driders. The DM's are usually quick to rectify any problems they have caused, but I'd imagine the way in which they are approached influences how helpfully they react.

Go forth, play NS4, be fruitful in your levelling, and if a god or goddess decides to use you as his/her personal chewtoy for a bit, feel blessed that you were able to entertain a being of such power and grace (or insanity, whatever the case may be).