Taken from the 1.66 log of the beta 2 patch ... immune to mind spells supposedly works to prevent it, as well. Should be interesting to see it implemented.* Phantasmal Killer now properly respects Fear immunity and properly ignores Death Magic immunity (nw_s0_phankill.nss).
* Weird now properly ignores Death Magic immunity (nw_s0_weird.nss).
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TheBestDeception
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An alternate to Necro-Wail-Mages!
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer
To me, this implementation is kind of strange. I think I need a clearer definition of what "death magic" entails, because it seems to me that if immunity to death effects doesn't stop Weird/PhantKillah then why the fort save? You're making a bodily saving throw against what? Death, it seems to me.
Following the logic of this implementation, Implosion shouldn't be affected by death immunity because it's just a lot of force, not strictly necromancy (which would leave no immunity at all to it as well as a bloated save--what gives with that, btw?).
As far as I'm concerned, if a spell requires a save to keep from dying, it's death magic. Spell immunity: necromancy shouldn't protect you from the spells in question here, however. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that I don't think Weird needed a boost. It did. But I was thinking in the form of making the consequence of failing the will save more onerous, like fear, confusion or some other mind effect, rather than a pitiful bit of damage.
Following the logic of this implementation, Implosion shouldn't be affected by death immunity because it's just a lot of force, not strictly necromancy (which would leave no immunity at all to it as well as a bloated save--what gives with that, btw?).
As far as I'm concerned, if a spell requires a save to keep from dying, it's death magic. Spell immunity: necromancy shouldn't protect you from the spells in question here, however. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that I don't think Weird needed a boost. It did. But I was thinking in the form of making the consequence of failing the will save more onerous, like fear, confusion or some other mind effect, rather than a pitiful bit of damage.
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DrakhanValane
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The idea behind weird and phantasmal killer is that they're illusions. the save is due to fear. That said, immunity to mind-affecting spells *should* protect you from Weird and other heart-attack inducing illusions. Not sure if it'll work that way.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
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TheBestDeception
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Then, perhaps there shouldnt be a fort save in there at all? When I think Phantasmal Killer, the first thing that comes to my mind is "The Ring" ... no matter how strong the victim was, it was fear that ultimately killed them (and gave them that freaky death face) ... similarly, the PK effect is that of fear, as DV stated.
Does not Mind Affecting refer to those spells that control your mind, vs. induce fear? There seems to be 2 separate save bonuses you can receive from helms...
Does not Mind Affecting refer to those spells that control your mind, vs. induce fear? There seems to be 2 separate save bonuses you can receive from helms...
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer
I think fear spells and effects are a subset of mind-affecting spells and effects. One's mind can be affected in many ways; fear is one of them. I've long said that weird & PK either shouldn't have fort saves or should actually result in a fear effect (duh?!) not stupid physical damage. That was a silly shortcut, seemingly copied off how the other death spells work.
The answer I got was that it wasn't changing because it was based on Wizards of the Coast source, and certainly wouldn't change in a patch. I had accepted that and moved on, until this patch when they removed the death immunity to weird & PK but kept them otherwise the same.
The answer I got was that it wasn't changing because it was based on Wizards of the Coast source, and certainly wouldn't change in a patch. I had accepted that and moved on, until this patch when they removed the death immunity to weird & PK but kept them otherwise the same.
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DrakhanValane
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The fort save is for the system shock from a heart attack like effect.
From the 3.5 PHB entry for Phantasmal Killer and Weird (The 3e versions are very similar):
Phantasmal Killer
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
Weird
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
This spell functions like phantasmal killer, except it can affect more than one creature. Only the affected creatures see the phantasmal creatures attacking them, though you see the attackers as shadowy shapes.
If a subject’s Fortitude save succeeds, it still takes 3d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. The subject also takes 1d4 points of temporary Strength damage.
From the 3.5 PHB entry for Phantasmal Killer and Weird (The 3e versions are very similar):
Phantasmal Killer
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
Weird
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
This spell functions like phantasmal killer, except it can affect more than one creature. Only the affected creatures see the phantasmal creatures attacking them, though you see the attackers as shadowy shapes.
If a subject’s Fortitude save succeeds, it still takes 3d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. The subject also takes 1d4 points of temporary Strength damage.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
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JesterOI
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So should being blind...DrakhanValane wrote:The idea behind weird and phantasmal killer is that they're illusions. the save is due to fear. That said, immunity to mind-affecting spells *should* protect you from Weird and other heart-attack inducing illusions. Not sure if it'll work that way.
Same with being deaf should make you immune to wail
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DrakhanValane
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