Re: Summons

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:10 pm

Some questions have been raised in the past week concerning the summons of NS4 ... Therefore, consider these following points:

1) You do not lose XP when killed by a summon.

2) Summon spells are not equally effective for everyone ... those who want better summons must strive for it.

3) Undead summons are likely to be reworked in the future. For the time being, be patient with Palemasters and Blackguards...and try not to rely on the summons.

imom411 · Post by **imom411** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:50 am

2) Summon spells are not equally effective for everyone ... those who want better summons must strive for it.

Any clues as to what this means in practice? I've noticed that it seems divine summons are slightly better than arcane versions of the same creature, but not sure about that, as I haven't compared them side by side. What does "striving" mean?

Post by **Netrom.dk** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:15 am

Druids have better summons then a normal caster due to their natural link with the animals

A cleric with animal domain has better summons then a cleric without animal domain.

Taking Spell focus in Conjuration also helps you summons... That is whats meant by striving for it

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:18 pm

Not sure if it was implemented, but I think Spell Focus: Necromancy helps with undead summons in a similar fashion.

imom411 · Post by **imom411** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:35 pm

Taking Spell focus in Conjuration also helps you summons... That is whats meant by striving for it

That's really interesting! I'm impressed by this level of innovation by the dev team

This is especially cool because I've never considered spell focus conjuration to be worth it for arcanes (or even divine casters) because there aren't higher level offensive spells in this school. Nice work.

imom411 · Post by **imom411** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:37 am

By the way, does this apply to greater and epic spell focus in conjuration as well?

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:05 am

imom411 wrote:By the way, does this apply to greater and epic spell focus in conjuration as well?

Of course it does...the more focus, the more power.

Darryl Hamlin · Post by **Darryl Hamlin** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:30 am

on that note, attack, my mighty penguin!

Though I wonder, are the summons cycled or random? 'cause I always seem to get fiendish chicken, fc, penguin, penguing, fc, etc. on Summon I

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:16 pm

Currently, the summons are randomized for summon spells with multiple creatures. However (and this will blow imom411's mind), we are planning to revert to the summon-by-alignment when summons are finalized...

For example, from Gate a good-aligned character will get a Planar, a neutral will get a Black Slaad, and an evil will get a Pit Fiend.

Darryl Hamlin · Post by **Darryl Hamlin** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:08 am

good, since I was a tad uncofortable being followed by a fiendish chicken....

Post by **Flailer** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:28 am

Just out of curiosity, is any info available on *how* summons are improved with conjuration focus? Like, for every DC point put into conjuration focus, does it lead to a corresponding increase of skill points for the summons and DC/2 leads to that increase in main stats (ie, DC 34 leads to +17 for STR and CON or something of dat nature?)

TheKala · Post by **TheKala** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:28 am

This is beta.... if you're interested in finding information like that out.. why not make a character.... who knows... you may be able to make one better than we could tell you how?

imom411 · Post by **imom411** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:05 pm

Currently, the summons are randomized for summon spells with multiple creatures. However (and this will blow imom411's mind), we are planning to revert to the summon-by-alignment when summons are finalized...

boom! *mind blown!* :shock:

What can I say? I impress easily. Really, I appreciate innovation, and I think the summon system in NS4 is pretty damn innovative. I'm not specifically all that impressed that the idea is to revert to summon-by-alignment; I'm more impressed by the fact that all those summons are different than the limited variety normally available in NWN.

Celestial Lion rocks, btw. Knockdown, sneak, cleave, and that roar. That friendly golden glow makes me all warm inside. Remind why a treant is chaotic evil again, though?

Post by **Flailer** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:25 am

Okay - I did some brief investigation. I made a wiz with spell focus in conjuration and also with a Specialization in the School of Conjuration. Here's some examples of the summons with no spell focus, spell focus, and greater spell focus.

The stats that change are STR, DEX, CON, AB and AC.

Normal: (No spell focus and no Conjuration Specialization)
Level 1: Summoned Penguin, lvl 2
Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Fort: 4 Reflex: 7 Will: 6
AC 14, HP 8 Dodge, Sneak Attack, Iron Will
AB +2
Dam Imm increased: Cold
Immunity: Mind Spells
Concentration: 5
Spot, Listen: 3

ALTERED with Spell Focus:
Level 1: Summoned Penguin, lvl 2
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Fort: 5 Reflex: 8 Will: 6
AC 17, HP 10 Dodge, Sneak Attack, Iron Will
AB +5
Dam Imm increased: Cold
Immunity: Mind Spells
Concentration: 6
Spot, Listen: 3

ALTERED with Spell Greater Spell Focus:
Level 1: Summoned Penguin, lvl 2
Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Fort: 6 Reflex: 9 Will: 6
AC 20, HP 12 Dodge, Sneak Attack, Iron Will
AB +8
Dam Imm increased: Cold
Immunity: Mind Spells
Concentration: 7
Spot, Listen: 3

So, it looks like each time you take a spell focus, it adds 2 to STR, CON, and DEX and raises your AC and AB by 3. Doesn't appear to affect any feats or anything. This pattern seemed to be true at least for up to Summon Creature III.
There didn't seem to be any difference in the quality of the summons by taking a specialization in the school of Conjuration. This might be another good idea in my opinon - it's a pretty steep penalty to do that and not have access to any Transmutation spells (Bulls Str and the rest of the stats, Haste, Greater Stoneskin, etc). Maybe add higher stat increases for specialization in Conjuration or tack on some feats for the summons?
Also, not sure what Epic Spell Focus in Conjuration will bring. If it adds just +2 to STR, DEX, and CON, IMHO that's too low - it should be at least +4 to those stats. Anyone ever taken this?

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:55 pm

Since Epic Spell Focus normally adds only +2 to your DCs, I fail to see how simply adding 2 to STR, DEX, CON, AB, and AC is too low... It's following the same progression as normal... (AB and AC increases are +2. It looks like +3 due to STR/DEX increases.) How about SR? is that affected at all by foci?

I don't think there's any way to hook the specialization in the scripting engine. I believe that was the reason for not making any bonus for that.