NS4 Character Builds - General thoughts, a couple questions

LoZen · Post by **LoZen** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:22 pm

While waiting for the open beta, I decided to take some time off from NS3 and start working on character builds that I would like to try on NS4. This is the first time I've ever sat down and actually planned out a build from level 1 to 40 (I know 40 is a long way off, just planning ahead). I am not doing this for powergamer purposes - just the opposite in fact. I have come up with some oddball concept builds that need to be really good at what they do to even be viable. I have found the extra planning to be very usefull - sometimes what looks good on paper doesn't work when you get down to actually levelling the character up in a module and testing it. And sometimes, if you get everything just right, you find that your weirdest idea turns out to actually be a fairly strong character.

Anyhoo, the point is that I've been trying to plan my builds based on NS4, which is hard to do having not even played it yet. The following are some thoughts and questions I present to you other Neversummerians who may be planning builds of your own.

NS4 Magic Items:
-No permanent effects (Haste, True Seeing, etc)
Advantage -> spellcasters. Fighter types will have to find items with X uses/day or rely on buffs from the casters in their party.
-Enhancement bonus on weapons limited to +4 (for now?)
+5 DR spells become much more attractive
-No immunity-to-everything items
Paralysis? Mind-affecting? Death magic? Level drain? How are your saving throws?
-No uber NS3-type gear
Forget that +5/25 soak armor set that gets all of your key stats up to +12 and gives various other fringe benefits. Buffs, skills and feats will be much more important
-Critical save/failure on 20/1 removed
That DC 16 vorpal sword just got a lot less deadly against bosses, and once again: How are your saving throws?

NS4 Multiclassing:
-Only one PrC per character (some of which are only allowed in certain factions)
I think this is a good idea. So far none of my builds has more than 2 classes anyway.
-XP bonus for favored class/race (including the new subraces)
Get 10% of the XP toward your next level automatically. This could be a significant advantage for pure or nearly pure classes. At epic levels thats 2000-3900 Xp for free!
-No XP penalty for non-favored mutliclassing
Slightly favors munchkin builds. Any race can take 1 level of monk/paladin or 4 fighter levels (just a few obvious examples) with no fear of reduced XP, regardles of their other classes. But I'm not complaining, this doesn't really bother me.

Question:
1) For those factions which only allow certain classes, can you only multiclass within those choices? e.g. Can a Druid of The Circle take monk levels at some point (popular Shifter build) or can he only multiclass into Ranger, Barbarian, Bard or Shifter?

NS4 Parties:
-Must be within 40 ft. of the kill to get XP
No 'sharing' of XP for party members who are in other map zones.
-Individual XP calculation
Based on character level vs. creature CR. Party members with significantly higher level will take most of the XP for high level creatures. No power-levelling your noob buddies.
-Synergy
The closer your party members are in level, the more XP bonus you get. And I'm still waiting to see more info on the special Synergy attacks and spells. Looks like those will make things interesting with party class combinations.
-Party class combinations
With these incentives for adventuring with a party, will we see more diverse characters running around? Could it be that I could play a pure-class rogue and not only survive, but be able to contribute to the party? Yes, its nice to be ABLE to solo, but I'm going to try some support classes and actually play them as support classes.
-Friendly fire
AoE's will damage your allies. Don't nuke your melee buddies!!!

Other NS4 Stuff:
-Crafting (must have at least a 10 in Str, Dex, Int AND Wis?)
Only certain classes can get to Master Artisan for each type. Also, certain other classes can only attain Craftsmen level in ANY tradeskill. And with the toned-down availability of good magical loot, it seems crafting may be an important source of equipment. What items will be in demand?
-Jobs
Which jobs will you master? This will most likely depend on your class and faction, but will some offer more 'uber' bonuses than others?

Question:
2) How dependent will we be on crafters as opposed to merchants? e.g. Will wizards only be able to get those 9th level spells from a scroll that someone else scribed for them? Will clerics be constantly hounded for heal potions and rez scrolls? Will arcane archers who don't have bard or rogue levels have to get someone else to craft their ammo?

Um, I guess thats about it... Comments?

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:25 am

Question:
1) For those factions which only allow certain classes, can you only multiclass within those choices? e.g. Can a Druid of The Circle take monk levels at some point (popular Shifter build) or can he only multiclass into Ranger, Barbarian, Bard or Shifter?

can only multiclass to ranger, barabarian, bard, shifter.

only the base classes that are listed as the Faction's own and the PrC classes that arent exclusive to any1 specific faction(unless u are in taht faction).

2) How dependent will we be on crafters as opposed to merchants? e.g. Will wizards only be able to get those 9th level spells from a scroll that someone else scribed for them?

Deputy Dog said at one point that merchants will not be selling any scrolls whatsoever, so they will have to get them from other mages. Unless of course you get them from killing a monster or such.

Pettsson · Post by **Pettsson** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:15 pm

Throst54 wrote:
Question:
1) For those factions which only allow certain classes, can you only multiclass within those choices? e.g. Can a Druid of The Circle take monk levels at some point (popular Shifter build) or can he only multiclass into Ranger, Barbarian, Bard or Shifter?
can only multiclass to ranger, barabarian, bard, shifter.

What I'm wondering is weather you'll be kicked from your faction (not likely) or just deleveled (likely), but I'd like to be sure.

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:28 pm

Your level is stripped. Please try again. :)

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:11 pm

well, you have many good points there LoZen. Tho you seem to talk about a character that would be intent on trying to solo the mod rather than trying to promote "teamwork" within your faction. So what would you change about considering to build a character if you were focusing on being support? But wait? Support what? A healer? Archer? tank? spell slinger, summoner, what? You see it's hard to pin point just how to make a character when there are so many paths and forks...

LoZen · Post by **LoZen** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:34 am

Actually, the point I was trying to make (in a roundabout kind of way) is that it sounds like NS4 will be much more friendly to characters that can't solo. As far as support classes go, I'll use your first suggestion as an example - a Healer. As in playing a pure Cleric whose skiils, feats and domains are all focused on healing. Not a super-buffed melee-type who can summon a dragon, but a guy who stands behind all the fighters and just heals them, buffs them, is ready with a rez if someone goes down, etc. Maybe he throws all of his points into Wis and Cha, and ignores Str and Con, because that's not what he's about. Maybe he has Zen Archery in case he runs out of spells. You dig?

The tricky part is incorporating that idea into the NS4 specific setting, knowing what little we know about it without having tried it yet. Like if you're a fighter type, with no immunity items, you may actually want to consider taking a feat to to boost your will saves if you find that you keep getting nailed with mind-affecting spells. On the other hand, with the more party oriented approach, maybe you won't have to worry about that because there's a Healer Cleric whose got your back incase you get cursed or something. If you want to solo, then you're going to have to adjust to the differences. I think it will be interesting to try out some characters who wouldn't stand a chance soloing NS3, but might be a great addition to a party in NS4.

It just seems to me that NS4 is going to be a lot different than NS3. The old power builds might no longer apply. You might really need to have a party, and the XP benefits might make you want to join up with others as often as possible. The idea is how will this change the dynamic of building a character? Instead of 'What's the best build to solo G1 with, and get all the best gear for my other character?' it might be more like 'As a rogue, what can I do to offer the most benefit to my travelling companions?' (besides opening locks, etc)

And then theres PvP. Party-based PvP. I'm working on a build right now for a Counterspelling Sorceror (Focus: Abjuration). I doubt he'll be soloing anything at all, but if you run across a couple Mystral Ascendency mages, the fighters can run up and hack them to pieces while he counters every spell they try to cast

lord_modred · Post by **lord_modred** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:25 pm

also,(although this is more of a side note), those debilitating mages are gonna be alot more powerful, who needs a fire ball when you've got two suits of armor with sharp metal thingies willing to do you bidding?? all you need to do is sling out the hold, level drain, confusion, and various other debilitating spells(black tentacles is gonna be fun in ns4)

LoZen · Post by **LoZen** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:33 pm

Yes modred, that's the kind of stuff I mean. Fighter-types with low will saves are going to be very vulnerable to all of those kind of spells, even Fear! Throw out a Mind Fog first and it gets even worse...
So those fighter-types will have to compensate somehow, or make sure they have a cleric or mage in their party when they get hit with Hold/Curse/Fear/Energy Drain, etc.

On a related note, mages/rogues/bards will have the same problem with Fortitude saves. I had this idea in my head while reading the description of the Pale Master:
"Necromancy is usually a poor choice for arcane spellcasters. Those who really want to master the deathless arts almost always pursue divine means."

So I came up with a Pure Cleric Necromancer

Death Magic anyone?

Gil-Este · Post by **Gil-Este** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:05 am

Most PnP necromancers are pure clerics. It would have been really cool if Bioware had incorporated the True Necromancer prestige class from Tome and Blood, which lets you stack arcane and cleric levels when determining necromancy/death magic spell effects/DCs.

I'm pretty sure though that the mage gets more death magic spells than the cleric in NWN, the cleric's forte seems to be healing, positive and negative energy damage, and sometimes summons. The mage seems to be the one with death magic, massive damage attacks, that kind of thing.

Mages and clerics should both be able to cast spell resistance at a certain point, rendering at least partially ineffective debilitating spells like hold/curse/fear/energy drain and that kind of stuff. And theres always dispel magic spells to cast on yourself.

Smurf · Post by **Smurf** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:42 am

you can't dispel any of thsoe things

D00D · Post by **D00D** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:26 am

You can get the clerics to cast remove curse, restoration or greater restoration. Worse, get killed and have the cleric rez

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:54 pm

We have some very good points here...However,we must all admit that spellcasters of all kinds will be most powerful in ns4..exactly as it is in D&D (we must all see that mages are overpowering in all D&D).
The question however is: Will lots of people accept to have a vulnerable to even "easier" spells (tentacles,mind fog etc) but suitable for a party or choose to just go easy way and have their spell resistance or Greater Spell Mantle and Weird?The point is to promote all kinds of classes and not get stuck to spellcasters who can slay most of the people

LoZen · Post by **LoZen** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:56 pm

Good points. The more I think about it, the main differences in NS4 builds will probably be:
1) Ability to survive without 'uber' gear - party members can make up for your weaknesses
2) Contributing to a party - being specialized rather than generalized
3) PvP considerations - possibly specialized/class-based as well

My next build is going to be a Druid (The Circle). Seeing as how the Mystral Ascendency mages will be his arch-enemies, I will probably try to design him specifically as a Mage-Killer

with the assumption that I will have Rangers, Barbarians and animal companions fighting at my side...

Wolfarus · Post by **Wolfarus** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:01 am

Lots of good points all around, i must admit. But from what ive read on this threat, it SOUNDS like NS4 is leaning towards "making" people play in a party if they want to get the most (e.g highest chance of survival, access to most or all the areas, ect) out of the server. Back in NS3 west (which is where i started/was introduced to the ns community) i got the impression that the game structure was balanced between parties and solo's.

Yes, solo-ing can be more difficult and time consuming to play, but i like the freedom it gives me. I dont have to be tied to a group, depending on them for my survival and gearing-up. Thru trial n' error, and simple playing experience, i learned my way around my favored class (fighter), how to build him, what feats and such to give him, ect.

As for multi class restrictions, i dont see how this could work that well. Take the guy im experiementing with right now. I set out to make him a fighter, backed up by PM abilities. So that means i had to be at least a lvl 3 wiz or sorc as well. So thats 3 classes rolled into one guy. The more classes people put into their char the less powerfull they will be over all. My fighter is a dec. meelee guy, but because he's divided into 2 other classes, he isnt the pure tank o' destruction that he could have been if he was forced to play just one main class and one side class.

And in regards to the uber items, yeah i agree with them needing to be toned down, but only up to a point. If you've built your char right, played him wisely (e.g. playing him to survive, not blindly rushing into tough monsters over and over again, hoping somebody revives you so you dont take the xp/gold hit for an area that you shouldnt be in at that point in your career) then you should be allowed to sport the uber gear. You've earned it. I admit that some of the stuff on my fit/pm was given to me, but i NEVER hung around the D box, waiting for hand me downs, or just flat out begged / spammed the chat, looking for gear. I tested myself at the hard areas, suffered my share of respawns, ect. I prefer to think i was given the items because i earned the giver's respect in TRYing. Heh.

To wrap things up, from my experience so far with NS3 west, i think the server and layout was made primarily for lvls 1-23 or so. Anything beyond that (assuming you build your guy up right) there isnt much of anything that can harm you. The only things the high lvls ( 33+) do when they are in there is either go around rez'ing people, making G1 or dwarf runs. I have yet to see G1, but id imagine she's the only thing that would give them any sort of decent xp. If NS4 is built to be fairly challenging (in more then 1 or 2 areas) for lvls up to, id say..oh...35 then allot of these tone downs and restrictions wouldnt be so neccessary, methinks.

Thats my 2 wheat cents worth

Crymsyn · Post by **Crymsyn** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:52 am

LoZen wrote:Actually, the point I was trying to make (in a roundabout kind of way) is that it sounds like NS4 will be much more friendly to characters that can't solo.

Wolfarus wrote:Yes, solo-ing can be more difficult and time consuming to play, but i like the freedom it gives me. I dont have to be tied to a group, depending on them for my survival and gearing-up. Thru trial n' error, and simple playing experience, i learned my way around my favored class (fighter), how to build him, what feats and such to give him, ect.

One of the biggest attributes that the Dev's wanted to include in NS4 was teamwork. NS3 was soloable (95% of it was, especially after Epic Levels), and they wanted to steer clear of it. I don't see anyone soloing any of the boss-areas as of now. From what I've seen, a balanced party is the best thing around.
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