A few things noticed while playing a mage

[Spura]

I see duration has been reduced on a lot of spells. I would like to know why. I am talking totally non overpowered spells like Shield.

Ok but that one is only lvl 1 so no biggie.

But why did you TOTALLY nerf Shadow shield??? What used to be great spells now is steaming pile of [censored]. Shitass spell that I wasted a stupid spell choice at leveling on. Apparently mages aren't supposed to have death spell immunity buff like clerics since about a minute after I cast it, it's gone. Hey thanks devs for taking a huge dump on one of the only high level mages buffs(and essential one at that). I don't understand why are they making me extend everything. I don't have the slots to have everything extended and even then that would double duration=still 5 times less than earlier.

Another thing: Something needs to be done about Mordenkainen's sword.
Me: lvl 13 just got the lvl 7 spells and mordenkainen's sword
I have 130 HP. I cast the spell. WOOHOO a 130 HP summon. Would you think about that? We can be like... twins... and unlike other summon spells it lasts only 1 rd per level.

A lot of whine has went into death magic. They always mention DC 45. It is a magical number. 45!! 45!!! I am sorry to pop everyone's bubble but there are no mages with DC 45. There can be made but there are none on NS.
And here is another thing related to this. Devs said it will take more than spamming non save spells to work as a mage in NS4. Well then, pray tell, what is a mage to do?
Let's look. Chain lightning 20d6 with save and 10d6 on secondary targets. IGMS 20d6 no save. Gee a tough choice there Mac. Really a lot of bonuses from using save spells... like.... um
I get higher damage average consistently when casting ILMS empowered maxed compared to empowered maxed save spells of the same level. If they don't save then firebrand and the like produce about 10 more damage. If they save then 20 less or 0 if enemy has evasion. And since they are gonna save more in higher levels yet.

Again about saves. Ppl whine about them. IMO they need to stfu a bit since there is plenty of save gear around.
My lvl 30 bard fighter RDD. He has 24 fort as a base. Song brings it to 26. Then I get +8 to saves vs spells cos I have 40 spellcraft. And here we have 34. More than enough to save vs all kinds of death spells. And by lvl 40 I get 5 more through leveling. And again +2 from higher spellcraft. That is 51 fort vs spells. I also wear NC armor with +4 vs death spells that is 45 fort vs death spells. It is easy to get saves.

One of the devs once said in one of these topic about mages that we can't jump to conclusions cos we haven't seen epic gear yet. Well ROFL epic gear will only make saves higher and already I will save to all spells at lvl 40. Epic gear won't do squat to DCs.

And about the magical number 45. I don't think half of ppl here are aware that if a mage wants epic spells and stuff like that, or wants PM or something there is no way he can get his DC up like that. There simply aren't enough feats to get great INT 10 if you want to get other stuff as well. Then another factor is that not all spells are lvl 9. Lvl 4 spells lose 5 DC just because of that. And then there are schools. Mage can usually focus in one, 2 at most. Other spells lose 6 DC.
So usual mage gets 2 to 4 great int feats.
Let's see DC on Confusion spell on evocation necro focused mage with 4 int feats. Hm int is 32 base +10 from spells and items = 42= 16 mod
DC = 10 + 4 (spell level of confusion) + 16 (int mod)= 30
DC 30 at lvl 40 is pathetic my friends is long long way from 45. A lot of classes have over 25 will save naked at lvl 40. Add to that various paladins, spell craft bonuses, helms vs mind affecting and you have 5% chance of working.

And this is why nobody will ever use save spells. They blow like hell and damage spells with saves aren't better than no save ones even when target fails the save.

P.S. That is also why I dropped INT feats in favor of PM and damage reduction with IGMS. It really pays off better than stupid DC.

[AlienOverlord]

I'll agree in a less confrontational way that the buffs are way to short. I made a melee wiz but need to rest too freqently because I can't keep shield up. Also agree that IGMS is over powered and there should be some way to avoid it (like gloves that make you immune but do nothing else, thus giving up the str bonus or boots as the ac loss would hurt if facing a mage with a fighter companion). Maybe it should only reduce the damage as mages need some way to deal with all the high saves out there.

[Spura]

How would reducing IGMS damage make save spells work better? I'll just switch to ice storm or something. IGMS immunity gloves: -> will use horrid.

[satantrik]

Durations are currently being looked at and discussed, stay tuned for info. I plan on updating the documentation as we make more extensive changes.

As far as saves are concerned. The game balance issues that happen post-20 (and even before 20) aren't our fault! Default D&D starts to fall apart by itself post-20. Each edition of PnP tried to compensate for this in some way. Before 3rd Edition, the power scale got out of control around level 10, that's why the hit point bonuses get nerfed at 10. In 3rd Edition, they tried to compensate with the different save/AB/feat progressions post-20. The damage/duration caps, "massive damage rule", coup de grace are, too, in a way.

The Epic Level Handbook's writers really should of tried to make up for this by revising the way power scales across the board, especially multiclassing. I've made adjustments to this in my PnP games that people seem to like, whether these will work, get added, or are even possible in NS4 we'll see.

[Spura]

Durations are currently being looked at and discussed, stay tuned for info. I plan on updating the documentation as we make more extensive changes.

As far as saves are concerned. The game balance issues that happen post-20 (and even before 20) aren't our fault! Default D&D starts to fall apart by itself post-20. Each edition of PnP tried to compensate for this in some way. Before 3rd Edition, the power scale got out of control around level 10, that's why the hit point bonuses get nerfed at 10. In 3rd Edition, they tried to compensate with the different save/AB/feat progressions post-20. The damage/duration caps, "massive damage rule", coup de grace are, too, in a way.

The Epic Level Handbook's writers really should of tried to make up for this by revising the way power scales across the board, especially multiclassing. I've made adjustments to this in my PnP games that people seem to like, whether these will work, get added, or are even possible in NS4 we'll see.

Yes, but in PnP Epic mages are overpowered so the rules were shifted to benefit the fighters. But in NWN epic mages lack 90% of their PnP power. No metamagic stacking, no lvl 10 and higher slots(maxed horrids and stuff), crappy epic spells(bunch of good ones missing, my favourite from epic handbook would be that one that resurrects you in 24 hours after dying automatically. Mages don't have contingencies and bunch of other feats lacking.

[satantrik]

Yes, but in PnP Epic mages are overpowered so the rules were shifted to benefit the fighters. But in NWN epic mages lack 90% of their PnP power. No metamagic stacking, no lvl 10 and higher slots(maxed horrids and stuff), crappy epic spells(bunch of good ones missing, my favourite from epic handbook would be that one that resurrects you in 24 hours after dying automatically. Mages don't have contingencies and bunch of other feats lacking.

Good points. The deeper I get into Bioware's code, the more I don't understand why they half-assed the translation of 3E's spell system (stuff that stacks that shouldn't, crippled metamagic, clerical domains totally off the mark, etc.). Most of the problems that occur with the spell system/casters over any sort of long term play with NWN on duel-servers, non-PvP and PvP PWs are a consequence of Bioware's design decisions. Maybe the development got rushed and they just didn't have the time.

[Sara Tonin]

DND is broken post lvl 20. Epic levels are just an afterthought.

[Spura]

Someone may be wondering where do PnP mages get DCs. Well lvl 40 mage can cast lvl 20 spells. That is +11 to DC over lvl 9 spells there. And of course lvl 20 spell also have ton of metamagic on it.

Leafing through Epic level handbook, you will see that fighters got their best feat dev crit(not in NS though). Mages got only those feats easy to implement. I miss Tenacious spell, spell mimic(my favourite).
Another feat missing is multispell. Multispell allows you to cast an additional quicekened spell per round. YOu can take feat multiple times and it stacks. If you are asking me, do I want to see this here. The answer is no. I am explaining why the things aren't balanced, why DCs are lower than some ppl think and why mages will never lay off IGMS.

IMO durations on protection spells shouldn't be nerfed like that. The only other high level mage protection is premonition and shadow shield is way more important.

[Wolfarus]

I really dont play casters (the most i have is a lvl 7 cleric whom i made just to make Rez's) so i cant speak with experience from their side..

But a while back(before they had been reduced time wise), i had a high lvl cleric friend buff me the way she buff's herself for duels and city raiding. The ENTIRE top of my screen was covered with buffs, and about 1/4 of ANOTHER row below that. EVERY single elemental dam type was covered, physical reduction, regenerating, spell mantled, concealed, ALL my stats upgraded by at least 4, magic dam added to my weap, saving throws buffed,ect. And they lasted a damned long time (took out all the NC outposts and got to the city gates before they wore off).

Now think about going up against a god (practicly, with all those buffs covering every conceivable weakness) with a melee fighter that has one elemental immunity at 50% (2 at best) ONE type of melee dam reduced, and only 2-4 bonus's to their stats, and a moderate, if any buff to one or 2 of their saving throws. Gee, i wonder who's gonna win in that battle.

THATS prob a major reason why they've reduced the spell's run time. Kina rediculous to go up against somebody like that as a melee fighter, given the gear we have available to us (so far).

[Cluster]

Your talking about a cleric not a mage. Cleric buffs last forever, especially when extended. Mage buffs dont last that long. With extended buffs my mage can battle for 2-3 minutes then im almost down to nothing. Gives me enough time to unleash most of my spells, so its not too awful, but you do _have_ to extend them, else they last just over a minute. By the time their cast, and you get into a battle, their almost half expired. 5-6 rounds later your naked. And that as a mage is almost instant death if you get snagged by a couple of hard hitting melees.

[Spura]

I really dont play casters (the most i have is a lvl 7 cleric whom i made just to make Rez's) so i cant speak with experience from their side..

But a while back(before they had been reduced time wise), i had a high lvl cleric friend buff me the way she buff's herself for duels and city raiding. The ENTIRE top of my screen was covered with buffs, and about 1/4 of ANOTHER row below that. EVERY single elemental dam type was covered, physical reduction, regenerating, spell mantled, concealed, ALL my stats upgraded by at least 4, magic dam added to my weap, saving throws buffed,ect. And they lasted a damned long time (took out all the NC outposts and got to the city gates before they wore off).

Now think about going up against a god (practicly, with all those buffs covering every conceivable weakness) with a melee fighter that has one elemental immunity at 50% (2 at best) ONE type of melee dam reduced, and only 2-4 bonus's to their stats, and a moderate, if any buff to one or 2 of their saving throws. Gee, i wonder who's gonna win in that battle.

THATS prob a major reason why they've reduced the spell's run time. Kina rediculous to go up against somebody like that as a melee fighter, given the gear we have available to us (so far).

-Spell mantled??? Clerics have no spell mantles.
-All elemental types covered? That's one spell
-Where did you get magic damage? As far as I know all cleric buffs with that damage are self centered.

Anyway you totally missed the point. I am talking here why DC spells won't work and what is wrong with nerfing those few defensive mage buffs. I am not talking about cleric melee buffs. And about clerics, that's why I play bard. And not a fighter.

Kina rediculous to go up against somebody like that as a melee fighter, given the gear we have available to us (so far).

That makes no sense!! What does gear have to do with anything? If they make more powerful gear the only result will be that mages'll get nerfed, cleric will wear same gear as you will so it doesn't make a lick of difference. Also a mage can't buff like crazy because he needs slots for attacking while cleric can use all slots for buffs and then use weapon to attack. Mages just run out of ammo.

[Throst54]

Kinda rediculous to go up against somebody like that as a melee fighter, given the gear we have available to us (so far).

That makes no sense!! What does gear have to do with anything? If they make more powerful gear the only result will be that mages'll get nerfed, cleric will wear same gear as you will so it doesn't make a lick of difference. Also a mage can't buff like crazy because he needs slots for attacking while cleric can use all slots for buffs and then use weapon to attack. Mages just run out of ammo.

his point is that fighters are more vuncerable to spells than mages/clerics b/c fighters are more gear dependent than clerics and mages...

b/c a fighter doesnt have magic which protects them even closely resembling the way mages and clerics.

if more powerful gear is made, how will clerics and mages get nerfed? they would be made stronger so that they can deal w/ the gear. and no, clerics wont wear the same gear if it is done right.

[Ryddwillow]

I too don't understand the nerf's of these spells. My 2 feats extended spell and max. are no longer any use-- like losing 2 feats. Black Blade os destruction gone- w/ a sorc i cant change these spells unless I lvl up. Other spells i've tried on monsters and did'nt get satisfaction so i scrapped them. I have many characters here and in my opinion this char. got nerfed the most. Just venting.




Blackwillow

[satantrik]

What does everyone think of this.

Good saves start at 1, not 2. They start at 0, the same as bad saves, if your first level in the class is not your character level.

In addition, weapon/armor proficiencies and certain class abilities depend on being taken at level 1. For example, a starting fighter would receive all the normal free feats, but multiclassing into it later will only garner shield, light armor, simple, and martial weapons. Maybe even make it dependent, such as getting light armor if no other proficiencies are had, medium if light, heavy if medium.

Another example: Divine Grace is only gained if your first character level is Paladin. Prohibit Paladins from dabbling in "arcane knowledge" and remove Divine Grace if multi classing into Sorceror, Wizard, Bard. This is probably too fascist and prohibitive, but just another example of the latter idea.

[Lework]

in NS3, I made mostly mages...so in NS4 i of course made a mage..

The only faction i feel needs adjustment is MA...

the reason being, in MA the only mobs that are decent level and are worth killing are formians..this is because they are large in number...however they are very resilant to magic...which makes it tough for lvl 7-8 mages to take them on...I think if you are going to have a faction based on mages...you should have MOBS that mages can handle...

look at NC..its easy to level there b/c of all the undead around..A cleric can hit lvl 17 in a day, some ive seen hit 23.

and LA is easy to level with almost any build..lost of stuff around.

the other factions i havent played enough..