After the panic... the summons changes

[Brennan068]

Ok, the panic over the summons changes seems to have cooled a little, so I'd like to offer some objective assessment of the summons changes.

I recall a request for an evaluation of the summons and whether they are useful from the time you get them up until you get the next one.

Character: 5th level true neutral druid (has up to 3rd lvl spells).

Summons up to summon III are adequate and are useful from the time you get them until you get the next one (and a little beyond.... I still use summon I)

My only beef (and the reason I cannot use summon II or III) is the aoe attacks that they make now. Druids must be careful wrt attacking any creatures in the woods and if our summons are going to willy-nilly blast aoe attacks then they are not worth the spell slot. Please buff either their defense a little more or their melee offense a little more and remove the aoe attack for at least one set of the neutral summons (obviously I'd prefer the true neutral because this is 'the' alignment for druids.)

[deathdearler1]

i personally can't use the new summons with my wizzy anymore. something about a 3 second head start i don't really like. now i have to find a very beefy tank to stand next to me all the time to make sure nothing can get to me. i don't think some of the summons needed to be knocked down to a 3 second meat shield.

[Brennan068]

What level? Did you make a new mage and try to use the summons at newbie levels? If you are using a high teens (or higher) character that you are used to useing the old summons with, your perspective is biased. My penguin lasted an adequate length of time for my first level druid. I do know what you mean about the short durations on the more powerful summons, I guess what I'm saying is to give them fair evaluation, we need to evaluate them from lvl 1.

[Throst54]

i think he means they last 3 seconds in combat

[Brennan068]

If that is the case, then he is fighting things way beyond his level and he deserves to be dying. The lvl 1 summons, while not as good as the old summons are adequate to the job. The same can fairly be said about summon II and III, with the noted issue above. My summon 1 can stand toe to toe with 8 gobos and last long enough for me to finish them off (with appropriate strategies mixed in there.) It is not sufficient to stand toe to toe with bugbears; nor should it be.

[WillPower]

Ive given up on summons... Just turned into a melee character like they wanted using spell slots for nice buffs instead of any kind of cool spells...

Everyone who hasnt seriously played the summons on different class types and alignments dont really have any place to post info on this topic. People who only play fighters and such can complain about summons and such but what do they know? We seem to kill more... if they havent played summon type classes alot then how do they know we level faster etc? How do they know we just havent planned a better build, had better luck with items, had better luck with spawns, know people that give us extra money or helped us get to better leveling grounds.... there are a million reasons why they level faster. Maybe its just because spellcaster have bit more interesting ways to kill things so they simply WANT TO PLAY MORE - and in turn spend more time leveling compared to the regular fighters and such. But either way people who havent played characters that use summons as a key part of their strategy then they are complaining about something they know nothing about.

------------------ EITHER WAY - IF YOU READ ANYTHING IN THIS POST
------------------ IT COMES DOWN TO ONE QUESTION

"Are characters that use summons still viable in the NS realm?!?"

The answer -----> Yes, just much more difficult now - so you must be alot more determined and willing to spend much more time then on any regular melee-Caster.

------> You can begin flaming now<-------

[Throst54]

i think it would have been more viable to merely nerf cleric's summons.. but i dont see the point in nerfing all the otehr classes...

[deathdearler1]

see, i'm a lvl 15 wizzy and i have an ac of 22. pretty normal for not being able to wear anything. my summon creature 7 is a gray render. his ac is 20. i have to lvl at the mirk, giant mountain or gnolls to make any real experience. even with a few buffs my render just can't seem to pull out a couple of kills before he goes down. granted i have been raiding RK since i was lvl 13, but the summon just isn't worth dying over to summon and buff. even with formians i take one hell of a beating repeatedly.

[DrakhanValane]

Do you have any Spell Focus: Conjuration feats? Those will buff the summon's stats (including AC).

[BaconStrip]

Losing summons isn't all that bad for a wizzy if you use the right build.

If you have the extra pre-epic proficiencies (which you should, after all, a level 20 human wizzie gets what? 11 or so...), think about investing points into expertise and improved expertise. Considering you won't have any summons to protect you, you can boost your AC to something comparable to a fighters. You can cast spells while using either feat and it gives you essentially 5 or 10 ac (depending on which you use) for clicking a button with zero ill effects beyond the 2 feat investment. Certainly better than taking spell focus in something worthless like illusion or enchantment just because you have the points to spend.

I had an elven wizzy with a couple levels of properly place monk for the tumble max out (still with a starting 18 INT mind you) on another server with shield/shadowshield/impr expertise/mage armor/maximized cats grace/extended haste get an AC of 52 with not-uber equipment and no armor outside of magic robes. I can only imagine if you were to spend some epic points in auto still spell you could get acs higher than even the best dex fighters quite easily.

Fiddle around with it a little more, using the monk levels to max discipline, tumble, hide, and move silently (all monk class skills), you could make a unbelievably powerful shadowdancing hips caster who is near impervious to knockdown and almost impossible to hit. But then again, that would be a seriously cheap [censored] character.

[Tapit]

I play mostly melee type character. I am also older than your "average" player, having already retired from the military after 20 years and that was a few years ago. When was anyone told that things are fair and equal? Things are meant to have advantages and disadvantages. I think dropping the casters summons was wrong. Finger wigglers are supposed to have magic or they would be melee. I do think instead of weaker summons, reduced exp would be logical. Maybe I will get flamed by this as well?? I do not understand why people complain about HIPS, Summons, Devistating Crit, the neighbor has a Jaguar and I have a Yugo, life is not fair. IF you do not like something, find a way to counter act it. I can not think of a single advantage that does not have a counter. Maybe I am wrong and maybe the counter will not make you uber is some other way. Again this is life. (Steps of the soap box and motions for the next person to step up)

Tapit

[BaconStrip]

...the neighbor has a Jaguar and I have a Yugo, life is not fair. IF you do not like something, find a way to counter act it.

Are you telling me to steal my neighbors car?

[DrakhanValane]

No, but that is one (highly unrecommended) way to do it. :P

[deathdearler1]

don't get me wrong about summons, i have a char. in almost every town that and they range just about every class. i want an informed decision on the beta version so i am playing everything i can. this wizzy is going to be pure class super spell caster with heavy armor. i don't mind a little nerfing on some of the spells but to make summons basically useless at a medium lvl is kind of crazy. i already know how to make 7k experience in a little over an hour with the right builds and advatages. howerver if everytime i want to take a walk after something impossible i have to "hire" a tank henchman to stand there and make sure i don't get beat up that might get a little old.

[JesterOI]

If you have the extra pre-epic proficiencies (which you should, after all, a level 20 human wizzie gets what? 11 or so...), think about investing points into expertise and improved expertise

Last time I tried using expertise on a wiz, expertise was disabled while casting spells.