Small Rant - Death spells

Stryder Blade · Post by **Stryder Blade** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:50 pm

Ok, I really like this server and where it is headed. NW4 is quite unique and combines a bit of everything for all types of players. However, I see a bad trend happening with death spells.

It's becoming quite apparent, that tanks and most other character types are and will be seen less and less and this module will soon become a cookie cutter for same character classes by everyone. There is no death immunity other than death ward (cleric spell) or amazingly high will saves.

Lately I've noticed everyone is making clerics or mages. Clerics can of course defend against death and mages can cast it. Does anyone see a problem with this?

Lately, I've been getting PK'd constantly by high lvl mages, in fact while minding my own business, they just walk right up and one shot kills a high lvl tank. To me this is totally upsetting any kind of player character equality on NS4.

Also, can you guys fix the PK respawn problem? I've noticed that if you have to respawn to another module when PK'd, its just like being killed by another creature. I thought PK'ing was supposed to be for fun and not cost the player who gets PK'd any xp or gp. Currently, if I'm bound to Avendell (beta server 4) and get PK'd on next map (Dark Forest beta server 1), I lose xp and gp as if I were killed by a common creature.

This means, A. I can't leave my binding server to play without fear of constant PK'ing, or B. I can and encure loss every 10 min. at this rate.

Anyway, seems there are a lot of nerfs around, I really think this problem needs to be looked at. Add a belt with death immune of some kind or something.

Guess I'm off to make a cookie cutter cleric like the rest

Styder Blade

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:11 pm

obviously u havent been looking at the player list when u log in or u would see there are very few 'cookie cutter' charachters.. secondly it isnt that hard to get your saves up.. ive fought quite a few charachters whom i couldnt cast death on, and all the mage death spells.. atleast phantasmal killer and finger of death not sure about wail, are a fort save. (phantasmal is a will save, if u fail the will save u ahve to make a fort save before u die).. so your point about will saves is wrong, and most high lvl tanks should have fairly high fort saves..

Stryder Blade · Post by **Stryder Blade** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:21 pm

Wail of Banshee (Necromancy): All enemies in area must save or DIE.

Weird (Illusion): Kill enemies in area.

Btw, when I said high lvl tank I was referring to lvl 20, not 40. A lvl 20 pure fighter's (aka tank) Will save is about 12 or so I think. Havn't yet saved against the above.

S. Blade

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:22 pm

LOLz, wait till everyone and their mother hits epic when epic spell focus and epic INT and CHA come into play. You will undoubtably see some DCs in the mid 40s before this is all over. I agree, casters are the way to go in this mod, and every other mod for that matter.

Thanos · Post by **Thanos** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:40 pm

A while back when I went 7-0 in pvp fights in one night(using death spells) I posted a suggestion that death type spells only work on non player characters. They would still be usefull but wouldn't be the end all and be all in pvp. No one really was interested so I let it drop

.

Btw clerics get a high level death spell too.

Stryder Blade · Post by **Stryder Blade** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:44 pm

HEHE, right on Thanos. Btw, to the above post. I just took a glance at all 3 beta modules and guess what?

Beta 1: 25 clerics of some type out of 36 players

Beta 2: 15 clerics out of 23 players

Beta 3: 18 clerics out of 32 players

Hmmm, cleric anyone?

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:36 pm

that doesnt mean they are 'cookie cutter clerics' as u put it..

Thanos · Post by **Thanos** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:31 pm

Qui wrote:that doesnt mean they are 'cookie cutter clerics' as u put it..

hehe it does show that clerics are just too sexy

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:45 pm

Just concerning death magic saves - almost all saves vs death magic come down to Fortitude saves (even the Illusion spells, which have a Will then a Fort). The one exception is the instant death effect from Prismatic Spray, which is a pure Will save, but it's a purely random effect like all the Prismatic Spray effects.

Craftable potions would be one solution, BUT mage spells like Mantle and Shadow Shield aren't currently craftable. Spell usage effects on armour would be another (have found save vs death bonuses on items and heard there was an armour dropping in Menzo with 1/day Shadow Shield or similar, but can't confirm that one).

Once fail-on-1 is fixed, building characters with decent saves/skills looks like the intended solution.

IcemanXV · Post by **IcemanXV** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:32 am

As long as the DCs are reasonable, I am fine. I'd rather have no immunities on a server myself, but after the 4th time of getting killed by a house matron in menzo by an implosion, it is a bit annoying. My fort is 14 (fighter11/wm7). I was even in a party, and buffed well. I don't think the game should be turned into "you need a cleric in your party or you have no chance". Just so this cleric can Rez and hand out death immunity. And trust me, I had shadow dragon armor (+3 death and fear saves), so I should have had a chance. Turn down the DCs somehow and I'm fine.

Only death magic I saved was slay living from okie sativa who decided to attack unprovoked as I was well below his level. I should have IKDed him and crit him for 70+

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:53 am

You're justg not playing your chars correctly. Why don't you try doing a tank with some shadow dancing PrC? (For example a ranger Shadow dancer) As of right now, HiPS can take out casters with no problem, how do I know? Okie Timberlake almost killed me 3-4 times using HiPS, however neither of us killed each other.

Next, Just because clerics and mages know how to construct workable chars doesn't mean regular tanks stink. Try using taunt as a fighter and see how easy it is to jack up other tanks (most tanks don't have high concentration scores...for obvious reasons). Then try knockdown and Improved Knockdown to take out casters, it works almost every time because casters (none of them but paladins and rangers have discipline as a class skill) so clerics wiz and sorc all get shot to heck with knockdown.

Tanks should have a myriad of abilities through multiclassing. For example a lvl 9 monk 11 fighter would be a good move, you'd get all four attacks, like a fighter, and you'd have increased speed, some SR, and you'd be able to fight with you bare hands (I think lvl 9 monks get IKD for free) that is a smart build if you ask me, and if you plan out the levels you can get TONS of feats that help both in monk and in fighter.

However, I do think that tank specific items should be implemented with Increases in AB once the weapons start hitting lvl 16 ILR. Make it so that special items are randomly dropped from hard bosses, and when that item drops it is class restricted to fighters, barbarians, paladins and rangers, then add +4 AB as well as normal lvl 16 stuff. Little changes for fighters in this way would help balance out the problems that some fighters have with the cleric class.

But don't be upset, clerics are supposed to be the dominant CGNU character, but they also have some serious fatal flaws, for example bigsbys, knockdown, mord's, and Sneak attack hurts every cleric, except dex clerics, in which SA doesn't do quite as much

There are counters to every build on this server, if you want to make a PvP or all around char, clerics and mages are it. If you are focusing more on party playing and having fun exploring the game without PvP tanks are more suited for such work.

Brax · Post by **Brax** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:39 am

I don't believe giving out immunities is the answer. As ATI pointed out, clerics have their weaknesses. He forgot to mention that their spells can also be interrupted. One thing I do think that is unfair though, are the summons. I fought a cleric who was challenging to me, but he had a stone golem or something, which had a better attack than me, couldn't miss me except on a 1, did lots of damage, was practically immune to my weapons, and had a knockdown ranged attack thingy. I am not saying that summons should be nerfed beyond usability, but they should not be more powerful than a PC of the same level as the cleric.

Just my 2 cents.

Lunas · Post by **Lunas** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:29 am

ya the summons are a bit off they are all more powerful than the player they came from and i havent made a claric or mage yet i dotn like the classes

i may soon be making a monk cause i like monks or maybe ill work on my other rogue wiz he needs to get to level 12 so he can take PM

dond · Post by **dond** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:44 am

you only have 14 fort svs as a lvl 18 meleer? geez, what's your con? 8?

death ward is castable on others (not sure if you can brew it, but you should be)

you can use the red lesser spell mantles in the meantime.

death magic is tricky, i personally never liked this part of D&D, but some classes can get insane svs and not break a sweat when it's casted (high con fighter, monk, pally, cot)

clerics being the most popular class is no surprise. they're way overpowered

and you can't really go wrong with a cleric build (spells/domains make up for it). it's like this in most nwn pw's though

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:21 pm

WM is a reflex save class, y'know.