Sudden prejudice against NS3 "powergamers"

[Æ]

*BUMP* (since it was off topic, and is kind of buried)

I said:

I'm really getting fed up with seeing all this crap, are we going to totally throw away everything that made NS3 great? Are we going to take all the fun and freedom out of the game, choking all creativity to death with rules and restrictions? One of the reasons some, like me, played on no other NWN server except NS3 is that we had the freedom to make the characters we enjoyed playing, and could level them and enjoy the game without taking too much time out of our lives. I know I don't have the time in my life to waste on such slow, boring playing. At this rate, the only people having fun in NS4 will be the RP geeks with no other responsibilites in life, who care about nothing so passionately as persecuting "munchkins" and "powergamers" who are just trying to enjoy a game....

All of us from NS3 are powergamers, that's why we loved NS3, and all you NEW people should get off our backs and stop trying to change the way we play... Hey, how about since YOU are NEW to OUR world, YOU change the way YOU play and LEAVE US ALONE!



TGPO said:

Prime example of someone stuck n the NS3 mindset.

Thank you for throwing it into such stark relief for us.

back to topic



I said:

Well you know, some of us want the kind of mod we had fun in back, as DM William says, we want our Uber back, and we shouldn't have to leave all our old friends to get it. As far as I'm concerned, that is the way D&D was meant to be played, EPIC FANTASY. And I think this whole, "well if you don't like it go away and new players will take your place" attitude is really $#!tty. "Thanks for supporting our world guys, for making donations and contributing to the community, now we got all we needed from you and we're going to throw it all away and put something weak in it's place weather you like it or not... say goodbye to your friends because you're not going to be happy here anymore, and we really don't care"

Shows alot of appreciation and caring for the players *add sarcasm liberally and stir* Yeah, thanks for being a jerk to us

Why shouldn't I "be stuck in the NS3 mindset"? I played there for a year and a half! I've been here since before many of the DMs were DMs. And it was my understanding that NS4 was going to be like NS3 but bigger and more detailed and with faction PvP, as we were led to believe for about a year, being told to make new characters in NS3 to try out builds for NS4.... We were never told it would be COMPLETELY different and alot weaker and that those builds we "practiced" in NS3 would be worthless. No one ever told us this would be a complete upheaval and tearing down of much of what NS3 players loved. I haven't supported and donated to NS3 so it could be completely trashed and replaced with a nickle-and-dime player's, RP geeks' paradise were we're persecuted for trying to build good and creative characters or trying to become more powerful, as is the design of a game where your character advances in levels....

I went over to NS3 a year and a half ago and never played on any other server because I loved it so much... and I stayed there to get away from the boredom I felt in other servers due to many of the things being implemented in NS4.

I was intrigued by this mod at first and tried to make my contribution to it, partially by trying to remind you all or some of the great things being tossed away that were in NS3 and hoping some will be put back into NS4. As it is, I have slowly offered less of my suggestions and advice, as it is not appreciated and I get bashed for it, I have slowly gotten more bored with playing in NS4 and have done so less, I have seen most of my friends leave the server for many of the same reasons and can't even find an FotS member to party with anymore, have watched the number of players in the mod lessen (which should be a big clue), and am quickly headed towards being bored out of my mind and devoting this time once again to the more productive projects in my life, like music... and I'm sure all you RP nerds and DMs/Devs who have maddeningly suddenly completely shifted attitudes and hate everything you created before (good old powergaming NS3) for no apparent reason will be happy if I go and I don't care how you feel about it just like you don't care if I stay. Wow I feel so warm inside, you people have such love for your players *add sarcasm and shake*

I think you people need to take a step back and look at the way you're treating your oldest players and ask yourself if it's really right or appropriate to treat us as such......



Devlin said:

Sarcasm aside from his post he does have some fairly good points. They may not be popular, but do make some sense. Most of the older player seem to be with me on South and on Pacific.



I now add:

PS I'm still pissed off and amazed that you guys actually managed to drive off Mr and Mz Shadow, the nicest and and most patient and caring and tolerant and generous DMs you guys had involved in this game; if you had a problem with them, there must be nothing but jerks left for DMs

There now that all that is said, I'm going to go do something alot more fun and productive than this game

[Denort]

I agree. I think a lot of people forget that Neversummer was to be a world that allowed and even encouraged almost all types of play. I think what a lot of people who like roleplay forget is that you do not have to cripple your character (re. min of 10 levels in each class) in order to roleplay. Roleplay is all about how you interact, not about whether Jim Bob the Cleric has a level or two of monk.

[-=Mushra=-]

ok as a old school south player (ns3) you guys make 1 huge mistake, ns3 was a powergame server only for one reason....you could max out all your stats be immune to everything and practicly be unbeateble.

thats powergaming, making any kind of char and still own everything. this was not ns3 when it started this is what it became.

ns4 is in general lines alot like ns3, only 1 thing is taken away and thats the uber items, the limits on chars is only 1 thats no more htne 1 prestige class and tbh thats a good idee, cause i could make a few designes for lv 40 wich either are immune to all melee or immune to all magic users. wich kinda sucks eventually.

the fact thye taken all the uber items away makes it alot more fun cause you can use alot more spells, and skills then you used to in ns3. a true powergamer tho has no knowledge of D&D or NWN cause all he did was make a pure fighter and pick auto choose feat and skill and hed own anything cause of the items.

if you take all that away you actually need to start thinking about the game for a change wich makes it chalanging. on the other hand if you want to be a simple minded player there is room for that also, there are area's for the somewhat slower players to level wich are easier and area's wich are alot harder to level in at lower levels but if you make a good char and think about all the points you can make it. thats the whole chalange if you take items away.

[TGPO]

All this "My vision of NS4 was X, and its not so now I'm pissed" commenting is mildly amusing to me.

This is the Devs vision, the beta gives you and them the opportunity to shape the world within the limits of the Devs ideal. Have we lost some of the NS3 uber end powergamers, yes. Will we loose more of them, yes. Will we gain other players to replace them, we already have and then some.

Some people dont deal with change well, some do. My apologies to those who dont, but to be honest there are more people playing NS4 than are currently registered on the forums even accounting for those with multiple accounts. That says something to me right there, just because your vocal does not make you the majority.

[Pros]

So I take it you didn't particularly care for Sunken Island, FrostDale, and the planar areas in NS4? Some nice gear drops there and is quite challenging but you can't possibly know this yet. You have already judged NS4 while we are in Beta before even seeing half of it. Its a new chapter for NS and a change. NS3 is great but so is NS4, just different and better balanced. I really like NS3 too and have much fun there. Change is sometimes uncomfortable. I think there was a few who also had comments when we went from NS2 to NS3.

From an area perspective, compare NS3 to NS4 without Lost Paradise (G1), without Sunken, without City in the Clouds and without Sabar and Sky. NS4 still has lots more to it that are not in yet.

[LadyCheron]

There are currently 3,772 distinct player logins in the database, and over 10,000 characters. It seems to me that there are more people enjoying the module as it is than otherwise. I can count the number of players concerned about "loss of powergaming" as less than 50. A very VOCAL group, but a very small percentage none the less.

[dond]

ns4 >>> ns3

ns3 is just a bunch of areas connected together and you go kill. pretty fun yes, but ns4 is that and much more.

there's actually a map! can you even make a map of ns3?!? lol


edit: anyone know how many times ae has quit now?

[DrakhanValane]

Whee Long posts are fun.

*BUMP* (since it was off topic, and is kind of buried)

I said:

I'm really getting fed up with seeing all this crap, are we going to totally throw away everything that made NS3 great? Are we going to take all the fun and freedom out of the game, choking all creativity to death with rules and restrictions? One of the reasons some, like me, played on no other NWN server except NS3 is that we had the freedom to make the characters we enjoyed playing, and could level them and enjoy the game without taking too much time out of our lives. I know I don't have the time in my life to waste on such slow, boring playing. At this rate, the only people having fun in NS4 will be the RP geeks with no other responsibilites in life, who care about nothing so passionately as persecuting "munchkins" and "powergamers" who are just trying to enjoy a game....

There are people that manage to make a level 20 character in a few days in NS4. You just have to find the right places to level. How is this different from NS3? You just haven't learned the uber levelling areas yet.

Relax a little. Is it really so bad that you can't level to 5 in an hour? It isn't like you're forced to be a first level char for 3 weeks. It only took me maybe 3-4 hours to get to level 3 as a Water Genasi with an ECL of +2.

All of us from NS3 are powergamers, that's why we loved NS3, and all you NEW people should get off our backs and stop trying to change the way we play... Hey, how about since YOU are NEW to OUR world, YOU change the way YOU play and LEAVE US ALONE!

All of us from NS3 are Powergamers? What am I, chopped liver? I'm hardly new. The devs are hardly new. They left NS3 up for you, didn't they?

TGPO said:

Prime example of someone stuck n the NS3 mindset.

Thank you for throwing it into such stark relief for us.

back to topic


I said:

Well you know, some of us want the kind of mod we had fun in back, as DM William says, we want our Uber back, and we shouldn't have to leave all our old friends to get it. As far as I'm concerned, that is the way D&D was meant to be played, EPIC FANTASY.

Lord of the Rings was Epic Fantasy. Look at all the Magic weapons and armour they used everywhere. If we're going to throw D&D out into the arguement, the armour in NS4 is hideously powerful. Look at all those items with stat buffs! Those are way more powerful than anything I'd expect in a PnP game. You can hardly expect every world to be exactly like Bioware's Faerun. Or NS3. I thought Epic meant the World and story had size and depth, not that it had overpowered weaponry.

And I think this whole, "well if you don't like it go away and new players will take your place" attitude is really $#!tty. "Thanks for supporting our world guys, for making donations and contributing to the community, now we got all we needed from you and we're going to throw it all away and put something weak in it's place weather you like it or not... say goodbye to your friends because you're not going to be happy here anymore, and we really don't care"

Shows alot of appreciation and caring for the players *add sarcasm liberally and stir* Yeah, thanks for being a jerk to us

Contrary to your belief, some of us do enjoy it. After all, look at how full the servers are. I don't think every single one is torturing themselves because they hate the mod. I know if I didn't like it I would have quit 5 minutes after starting. That's what I did with Aventia. Well, that was a series of 5 minutes of playing before I got pissed at the mod and finally gave up completely.

I remember many many times hearing (and telling) that NS4 would be completely different. It still is Uber, just not in the unbalanced NS3 way. Personally I could play with friends in a bunch of environments that I wouldn't enjoy as much solo. As Pros said, the Mod is hardly complete as is. Comparing NS3 uber to NS4 uber is a little premature.

Why shouldn't I "be stuck in the NS3 mindset"? I played there for a year and a half! I've been here since before many of the DMs were DMs. And it was my understanding that NS4 was going to be like NS3 but bigger and more detailed and with faction PvP, as we were led to believe for about a year, being told to make new characters in NS3 to try out builds for NS4.... We were never told it would be COMPLETELY different and alot weaker and that those builds we "practiced" in NS3 would be worthless. No one ever told us this would be a complete upheaval and tearing down of much of what NS3 players loved. I haven't supported and donated to NS3 so it could be completely trashed and replaced with a nickle-and-dime player's, RP geeks' paradise were we're persecuted for trying to build good and creative characters or trying to become more powerful, as is the design of a game where your character advances in levels....

Again, I distinctly recall in-game and forum discussions about how NS4 would be vastly different. How there would be no immunities aside from damage. AND that NS3 builds wouldn't work so well since they were based on NS3 gear (that wouldn't be in NS4 in the same form). What is creative about making yet another 19 Pally/1 Sorc? or 18 Fighter/1 Pally/1 Monk? Those aren't creative, they're exploitative. A creative character is more in the background than the skills. Maybe I've been playing too much PnP.

I went over to NS3 a year and a half ago and never played on any other server because I loved it so much... and I stayed there to get away from the boredom I felt in other servers due to many of the things being implemented in NS4.

I was intrigued by this mod at first and tried to make my contribution to it, partially by trying to remind you all or some of the great things being tossed away that were in NS3 and hoping some will be put back into NS4. As it is, I have slowly offered less of my suggestions and advice, as it is not appreciated and I get bashed for it, I have slowly gotten more bored with playing in NS4 and have done so less, I have seen most of my friends leave the server for many of the same reasons and can't even find an FotS member to party with anymore, have watched the number of players in the mod lessen (which should be a big clue), and am quickly headed towards being bored out of my mind and devoting this time once again to the more productive projects in my life, like music... and I'm sure all you RP nerds and DMs/Devs who have maddeningly suddenly completely shifted attitudes and hate everything you created before (good old powergaming NS3) for no apparent reason will be happy if I go and I don't care how you feel about it just like you don't care if I stay. Wow I feel so warm inside, you people have such love for your players *add sarcasm and shake*

I think you people need to take a step back and look at the way you're treating your oldest players and ask yourself if it's really right or appropriate to treat us as such......

I'm sorry you feel that way. If you present your complaints in a confrontational manner (as you do in most of this post), you have to expect the same in return.

Devlin said:

Sarcasm aside from his post he does have some fairly good points. They may not be popular, but do make some sense. Most of the older player seem to be with me on South and on Pacific.

I now add:

PS I'm still pissed off and amazed that you guys actually managed to drive off Mr and Mz Shadow, the nicest and and most patient and caring and tolerant and generous DMs you guys had involved in this game; if you had a problem with them, there must be nothing but jerks left for DMs

There now that all that is said, I'm going to go do something alot more fun and productive than this game

Quite an assumption there. Last I checked Mz and Mr didn't leave an explanation for why they had to leave.

Good Luck with your music, AE. I hope you come back when NS4 is finalised and give it another go.

[bongoblue]

5th level in one hour ? Thats news to me.

Yes, I am disappointed in n4, thats why I'm playing on ns3.

I'm not a power gamer and I'm not a rper.

I like to game. I've gamed for over 10 years. DMed extensively as well.

One of my web sites shows my extensive campaign.

There really has to be lots of things to do, not all of us like one trick ponys.

I realize nwn is built around quests, but after awhile, that gets boring. Go here, get a letter, go there, get a coupon, get a free meal, etc.

I would love to see more information being available for players. I'm not asking for walkthroughs. Places we can go and simply kill monsters, say rescue villagers. And without getting some quest thing from an NPC. All we would need is a message, maybe in here in a read only forum, 'villagers missing in such and such an area, levels and classes of such and such needed.' Player characters get the experience, and say a bit of experience for every npc they rescue alive and get them back to a village. And the evil player characters could try and stop it.

Or things like: 'in such and such an area, low level players should stay away.' or ' In such and such area, there are giants, your characters should be such able to adventure there.' No details needed, just a sentence or two. One of the DMs could even post rumors of things like a 'such and such a creature at location on map has a certain drop'. Make it 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 true. Only the DMs know for sure.

To make it different, some aspects could be changed weekly or monthly. That way it doesn't get boring. The changes could be saved, and some script loads a different module on a semi-random schedule.

I know lots of folks here are overloaded as it is.

But... I want Action, Adventure, excitement ! And I'm not seeing it.

I really feel that first timers in an adventure game shouldn't have to spend lots of their time guessing where what is located.

Some info should be available. Then players can go hunting for more.

Thats my half-penny's worth.

[FuzzyOne2187]

anyways to sum this bs up... hes mad becasue he isnt a demi-god anymore , bam done , lock the thread let the cyber dust cover it

[TGPO]

Bongo, not to give to much away, but as the beta progresses and/or goes out of beta I think you will be very happy indeed. Right now the DMs and devs are still up to the roof with bugs that need verified and fixed, balance issues, and in their spare time content development. Its a labor of love, but we all have jobs to hold down and families to care for so we cant dedicate 24/7 to it. I for one think the devs have done a remarkable and astounding job to date.

[Llew Silverhand]

I don't really see a prejudice against powergamers here, i consider myself a powergamer, I try to make the uberest char for a various styles of play, (i.e. yes, in frontal combat one on one against a pally my monk/rogue/shadowdancer would probably die, that doesn't mean that i can't hide, knockdown then sneak attack and repeat till opponent is dead. And no this is not cheap, it's on par with mages using death magic or people having huge crit ranges, it's just different styles). Powergaming is about making the most of what you are given. I never played on ns3, but from what i can tell, it was the items that made the player, well whoop de do. Where's the fun in being immune to everything? NS4 allows a much wider range of possibilities, and what's this about not leveling up? in 8 days I've hit lvl 22, well that seems like a pretty good time to me, what's the point of having a lvl40 char in a week? it would just get old. Here, there's still something to work towards, you know that once you hit lvl40, well then you WILL have accomplished something. Granted now i am reduced to fighting mobs of rats or goblins to get the best xp/effort ratio, but hey, it's been posted all over the place that there are epic areas coming soon, well worth the wait (please don't wipe my char nice dm's and devs.. ). Now I don't know this situation with Mr and Mz Shadow, like I said i've never played NS3, but again, from what I can tell they will be sorely missed and probably rightfully so, but things change, if you really hate it so bad, maybe YOU should be the one to host the south server.... I understand you not wanting to play ns4 non stop (well, i don't understand it but hey, I'm about as much of a video-game addict as you will ever find, Ethan from ctrl-alt-delete anyone? hehe) And you also make frequent reference to RP geeks, well doesn't that describe the whole public the D&D system was invented for? Sorry, if actually having to think about the choices you have to make while leveling your char and not being able to simply waltz in and leave your char in the middle of a mob and go watch tv after a days worth of leveling, fully knowing he won't get a scratch, is considered geeky rp, well then you might want to review your semantics. The only major problem I can see with ns4 right now is with regard to pking, but that's for another post (yes, there's going to be another pk post cluttering up the forum, so sue me ) I might agree that some of the restrictions that have been placed upon, or are going to be placed upon character building might be better left out, but hey, if you're a powergamer, won't there be that much more of a reward for being able to make that uber demi-god char even with all the restrictions? That's my point of view at least...

And now, for the last topic I wish to address, your donations. Now I think this was very generous of you, and i am CERTAIN that the dev's and dm's appreciate it too, but you were donating because you liked ns3, well things are changing so if you're not happy don't donate anymore, I'm pretty sure that nowhere was there any stipulation that should you donate you would get to dictate how the mod should be run. I don't mean this to be a smart-alec response, simply a statement of fact, but hey, take it how you will.
Now, off to write that pk post...

[bongoblue]

Thanks for the update.

Yes, I know we all have lives here. I work 42 hours per week of computer tech support of 12 hour shifts. Thats why I game only occasionaly online.

[ATI]

I agree with the spirit of what AE is saying, I'm a old player, when i was 17 I started playing in NS3, when it first started..... Now im 19, and I love ns4, i have nostalgia for the power gaming (Being UBer rocked!) but I can see what the vision is of the dev's as well.

AE, you're right we were promised the awesomeness of NS3 and more, however, NS4 technically isn't out yet, its not even half complete.

Yes, NS4 is nerfed beyond belief, yes there isn't an epic area yet, and yes, the quests are even close to done yet. But if this is what the game looks like and it isn't done.....I can't wait to see what happens when the dev's finish it. AE don't leave ns4 till its done. By then the nerfing will be eased, the items will be back in force, My YDB will reign, the quests will be awesome, and the full vision we were promised a year and a half ago, will be fully realized. Give it time, the project is still, just a project.

Remember reserve judgement for the final product, not the beta.

[DrakhanValane]

You guys would've hated seeing the mod without all the items it has now. I remember a time when it had only weapons and armour (including shields/helms) and cloaks. Just the masterwork iron and steel could be bought. Much less mobs than it has now. Some totally off kilter in regards to CR v. difficulty. No jobs. No crafts. No Rift Shards. That was back in August/September. There has been tremendous advance since back then and I know there's still the epic portion to go. When it's done it'll be amazing.