Some precisions

[hond]

first of all, i would like to thanks mining, for the info i was not understanding. On solar thread, and after reading well again , i finaly understand why rufio was mentioning a AC difference between baalor and solar.
Due to bonus race /feat , dragon knight receive a dex bonus out of eventual buffs
A planar focused Baalor/Solar will receive up to +9 dext, only beneficial by baalor in AC concept...

I have no problems in recognize, when i'm wrong. But it will really fantastic, to think , that's not everybody is using english as his first language, and if at same time, the wiki is so huge, that you need to enter in, three times by day in order to understand right the info, people can make mistake. I totaly missed those bonus , and by consequences, was saying a nonsense. My bad.
Here perhaps a request, instead of insulting, a clear response like:
Hond, your wrong, due to race/feat bonus (up to +9 Con, Str, Dex)+ eventual buffs, Baalor can receive up to +6 AC while Solar only 1...
And my response will have probably be:
Thanks, your right , i totaly missed that part

Finaly, i don't think arogance is, trying to defend your opinion. On that same thread, my opinion was that good cleric are superior to evil, and perhaps that difference on pet, was to balance that. Perhaps i'm too stupid, to found the evil cleric toon, who will on pair or superior to good one. Here evidently, some subjective argument like the turn effect. Players using the kd effect, will found superior the malus effect, and vice versa. But outside of that, i found very difficult to optimize some toons ( due to race, class, and domain access), and when i finish my test toon, just realize that oponent can make same toon (AC toon, DC toon, AB toon, Save toon, Turner, Soaker) superior to mine. After playing near 1 year here, i consider SL as my faction, but have to restart all my Mule, crafters and buffer in MA, as i can easily made competitive toons to fight my oponent. It's not arogance saying that SL assassin, tokens, race/class restriction, and city design are very weak compared with the rest (i admit TC is on pair with SL). Arogance is saying, shut up, you just a nub, whitout giving any arguments to proove, i'm wrong.
This forum is an open place for speak about ideas, resolve problems, and debate opinions...
I try to be participe in life of server/forum, with my language/player limitations, i admit to have made some inecesary shout mesage, complains.
In my opinon, arogance is :
- If i own all my oponent with my CoT toons, is just because i'm the best, never because CoT is an OP class, after all we don't have caster class in NC, so please shut up, your arguments are not avaible...
PD: at least i learn something about dragon knight today, will allow me to change buffs on my casters with them...

[mining]

Thanks for using paragraphs, and thanks for having the grace to correct yourself.

The main reason people find your comments arrogant (in my opinion anyway) is that you tend to make the same argument repeatedly.

Re: "oponent can make same toon (AC toon, DC toon, AB toon, Save toon, Turner, Soaker) superior to mine"
Yeah. That's kind of how it is, but it doesn't change that if a mirror match is going on, it's going to come down to luck and those factional differences - it's super hard to say if 3 AB/AC on a barb is more damaging than +x much acid damage - but it's also really easy to look at raw stats as the entire picture.

[hond]

Really?? Two toons identical (race/stats/feats), saying the toon with +3AB/AC/saves is superior to the other with +1d8 acid damage is arogance ??
Was really thinking it was a logical argument, my bad... That word seems to have different sense in english .
I just try to give an objective argument, and really tough , it was...Seems was not...I definitvly really don't understand...

[mining]

really?? Two toons identical (race/stats/feats), saying the toon with +3AB/AC/saves is superior to the other with +1d8 acid damage is arogance ??
Was really thinking it was a logical argument, my bad... That word seems to have different sense in english .
So if trusting/saying that is arogance, i have to recognize, it will better to stop posting, because i don't want to turn me an arogant...
Thanks for all...

Take two pure fighters with 70 AB each, and 40 AC each. That +3 AB/AC isn't going to make a whit of difference, while 1d8 acid is going to add maybe 50 damage over a fight and result in a win.

Alternatively, take two Xs with 90 AC in IE and 50 AB in IE. They won't be able to hit each other any better with the +3 AB/AC, but the bonus damage is, once again, going to actually be semi significant.

Note the paragraphing between "People think you're arrogant because you repeat arguments" and "Re: Job tokens rule the world" - People don't think you're arrogant for the latter, they just disagree with you. They dislike your arguments because you follow a single point (AO jobs are OP and need nerf) over any other point (e.g. AO has too many class options and it's bullshit).

[hond]

Take two pure fighters with 70 AB each, and 40 AC each. That +3 AB/AC isn't going to make a whit of difference, while 1d8 acid is going to add maybe 50 damage over a fight and result in a win.

why 40 AC ?? your argument is not real...they have to fight whitout armor to make the acid token on pair with AO's one ??
Str pure fighter get 60 AC ...
toon 1 (with token)
73/68/63/58 AB on 60 AC
3 attacks 100% 1 attack 90 % succeed
toon 2
70/65/60/55 AB on 63 AC
2 attacks 100%, 1 attack 85 %,1 attack 60% succeed
I'm not a statistic pro, but 1d8 extra damages, will not enough to beat oponent, who touch you on prolly all his attacks, while toon 2 will probably miss some of his attack... considering 1000 hps and 80 average damage for each toons, toon 1 have all the number to beat toon 2...
Give me other exemple

[mining]

Ultimately I guess what it comes down to is that AO will have toons that beat mirror toons, in much the same way that an MA toon will beat a TC toon mirror, in much the same way that an NC toon will be better at killing HiPSers than it's TC, AO, RK, SL, MA counterparts in a lot of cases.

Does SL get much great re: jobs? No, neither does TC.

Honestly though - it's very possible to list examples all day of builds which get minimal benefit out of a job token, but it's unlikely you'll take note - because they're obviously exceptions to the rule.

Ultimately though - remember that every faction has periods of "Let's not bother showing up to the relic war" to "hey, a SL guy on, take a picture honey!"

Speaking of relic wars...

[Daltian]

Besides the bonuses you are mentioning one can also get dex from Aura of Vitality, Greater Cats grace using wands, cats grace from harper.

[hond]

Honestly though - it's very possible to list examples all day of builds which get minimal benefit out of a job token, but it's unlikely you'll take note - because they're obviously exceptions to the rule.

And your obviously out of the reality with this judgment...perhaps TC/SL token can feat with that...why bother doing job, if you don't make a melee/range damager....But AC or/and saves with feat in ALL toons posible. Not just on mirors toons, who will , objectivly better.
You can make a list of 50 toons posible in all aspect of the game and no one will better in SL...I know i repeat this argument again and again...but no one at this moment, have prooved i was wrong...this is arogance?? I will very happy, that someone show me i'm wrong...
At the same time you can list some top caster in AO, top stunner in NC, top cleric in NC,Top soaker toon in MA, Top fighter token in RK etc etc...and those top toon, don't even need any token, those last one just made them , over the top...
Token is not the main reason of SL weakness, it's just part of it. At the hour of building a toon, you always face race restriction due to SL evil only, or a class who will feat better in a build that you can't do (ranger, HS, druid), and on top of that, if you can build a toon, AO can do the same with is magical token...Or do the same with better race + token...
AO can make better druid than TC, better sorc/wiz than MA/SL, better BG than SL/MA just for race/class option, and you add them +3 to all basic stats of the game??
And finaly, the ultimate toon don't exist, as the game is made to compensate weakness, with strong point...But giving a boost in all basic stats, is deleting the potential weakness of a toon, and boosting his strong part as same time.
Minimal benefit is not really how i will name that...

[hond]

Besides the bonuses you are mentioning one can also get dex from Aura of Vitality, Greater Cats grace using wands, cats grace from harper.

Due to bonus race /feat , dragon knight receive a dex bonus out of eventual buffs
A planar focused Baalor/Solar will receive up to +9 dext, only beneficial by baalor in AC concept...

I can imagine all what you say is entering in eventual buffs.
Thanks anyway...
SL have no druid, no harper...ok for the wand...
But a cleric queue with a pet will around 20 spells, and same buffs can be empowered or maxed, using a staff in order to gain +1 AC is out of my understanding in game...It's only a Pet, and +1 AC will not change my game in nothing...
i'm not the kind of player who will craft ,aura of vitality scrolls, ask to a team mate for a xfer, and bother to use it after my buff queue in order to gain +1 AC for 15 rounds (scroll or elyseum dragon amy)...Using the amy mean you will loose many bonus spells from wisdom and craftted amy, if you switch, or just play without a lvl6/7 and less will save...is an option, but again 15 round of aura of vitality not worth it...just a personal opinion

[TheEdge]

Speaking of relic wars...

Hmm I have been lax on that one though the current server population would make that a lil bit difficult. open to suggestions on revamping it to make it more current though as well as a bit more do-able with a smaller server population unless everyone starts calling back the old players out of the woodwork to make it back into the event of epic proportions we have seen in the past.

[Daltian]

War domain cleric can cast AoV.

[Korr]

Token is not the main reason of SL weakness, it's just part of it. At the hour of building a toon, you always face race restriction due to SL evil only, or a class who will feat better in a build that you can't do (ranger, HS, druid), and on top of that, if you can build a toon, AO can do the same with is magical token...Or do the same with better race + token...
AO can make better druid than TC, better sorc/wiz than MA/SL, better BG than SL/MA just for race/class option, and you add them +3 to all basic stats of the game??

Youre still not giving any specific information in here. 3 AC/AB to a sorc/wiz is not going to be viable. If youre a sorc and taking swings... you already messed up (oh and take out the archers first). A cleric with charisma can easily already max out its dodge AC, therefore that 3 AC again doesnt make much off a difference. It mostly benefits toons who dont have alternatives for AC boost (improved expertise, no divine shield, etc). At the same time a cleric that casts isnt going to benefit from acid damage on a weapon, same situation with the wiz/sorc.

Im not sure what skill bonuses are given from the AO jobs, but remember SL has VERY VERY nice skill bonuses from their jobs!

[Bargeld]

AO token gives +3 ab ac AND saves. It benefits ANY toon in AO in at least 2 ways, 3 if they are melee. 3 ac is helpful to any toon because of melee attack progression, the last hit is at -15, so even a 42 ac pure sorc/wiz gets hit less in some cases. And they save better too. They are getting almost 3 free epic save feats as a token (+3 token instead of +4 feat).

Korr, you need to stay off hond's butt on this stuff, your pushback on his statements is one of the reasons why there are so many tangents on these threads. He's trying to show you crap you apparently don't know, and it's sidetracking his main points. The stuff you are saying lately has really been showing that you are argueing for argument's sake, and not because your point of view is accurate. I mean really, 3 AC is beneficial to ANY toon. Just because you don't melee with it and get that benefit as a core aspect of the toon doesn't mean it isn't beneficial. If you manage to avoid that KD attempt on the 2nd or 3rd phase of combat, even once every 3 or 5 sessions, its still beneficial... just not AS beneficial as it is for the guy swinging a weapon. Using a job token for an additional d8 acid on your casting staff for pure HB and dc casters is an example of a useless job token. AO's are not useless to any toon, both tokens help EVERY toon in AO.

You aren't adding to the topics, you are subtracting from them.

[Daltian]

It's silly to say that 3 AC is not beneficial to toons with other means of getting high AC (like IE). The higher your AC is the more benefit you get from more AC.

Also, even toons with divine shield can benefit from more dodge by allowing them to use boots with more dex or at least having 3 more AC when divine shield is down and they are recasting.

[Delisha Zrazorian]

Here perhaps a request, instead of insulting, a clear response

this ^