Solars and everything else

[Rufio]

This is something I mentioned to lokey a long time ago that he told me to bring up on the forums for discussion, but I haven't until now.

The balance of the dragon knight summons was always thought to favor good and evil casters over neutral casters, and solars were supposed to be about equivalent in power to balors from everything I had heard, but this isn't really true. I recently borrowed dragon knight summoners of every alignment and recorded all of their stats, which can be seen on the wiki here: http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... gon_Knight . If you look closely, Balors are far more powerful than Solars, having 8 more ab, 80 more hp, auto quicken 3, and even more ac once buffs are factored in since dex ac isn't restricted by armor. Solars do have a better crit range, 2 more spot, and 10% more slashing resist, but those are small in comparison to having 8 fewer ab, especially since ab is the most important stat for a summon. The death slaad even compares well to the solar, having 1-2 more ab, more hp, and is knockdown immune (level 35 caster with hellball and a death slaad summon anyone?). The solar is slightly better because of the healing spells and crit range, but the slaad isn't the far inferior summon that it is often claimed to be.

I'm not posting this to get the balor nerfed. I think it is fine as it is, but it would be nice to see the solar given some distinction of its own. It would also give more of a reason to build good aligned toons. Right now the only mechanical reason to be good is if you want to build a paladin or a bard in NC, or if you want to use some alignment specific item and you didn't build in umd.

[MtainEer]

If you look closely, Balors are far more powerful than Solars

This is true and that is why I make all my casters evil if they are of the races that benefit the dragon knight summons. I vote for just up'n Solars in some way.

MtainEer

[Acesen414]

All Dragon knight summons should have auto quicken 3

[Korr]

Funny the other day I discovered that Karate has dragon knight. Then casted my solar... shortly after realizing why i never bothered much with it and it hadnt been quickslotted.

[hond]

curious case...i was asking me why i never saw an evil smiter...it's because no one is obliged to set good unless paly and because solar are dumb compared with baalor...
In one thing seems evil, is more powerfull than good, and people ask to balance it...
In same chapter, i would like to have a class who give +10 AB/save and +3 attack with a fear DC of 50, and 60 % speed increase to all party...or a cleric imploder DC 48, autoquicken III....or a tank with 60 in all saves and who can floor all oponent party turning...or a smiter who can't be smited... I can't...let it be
Complain here of good alignement players/faction is a bit exagerated...You don't have enought with 2 uniques prestiges class, greats tokens, the most pain city to reach, your bind point in front of craddle ??
Baalor are better compared with solar....you find at least 1 thing where evil is better than good...thanks rufio...

[Nyeleni]

Wow, Hond, this isn't about you or your faction. A better Solar will hardly make it harder for you. In case you didn't notice, mages still control the battlefield. And those are still not around in TC and NC...

[mining]

This kind of makes me sad, because Death Slaad was meant to always be the shitty one, because you should have to commit to be good or evil to get better summons :\.

[Delisha Zrazorian]

I vote for just up'n Solars in some way.

this...

you guys always trying to adjust the balance... here's your chance

[hond]

Wow, Hond, this isn't about you or your faction. A better Solar will hardly make it harder for you. In case you didn't notice, mages still control the battlefield. And those are still not around in TC and NC...

-i always tought the better baalor/solars was clerics ones...have to be mistaken...
- it will make it hardly for me and my faction...we don't have access to solar...

[hond]

Solars do have a better crit range, 2 more spot, and 10% more slashing resist

+2 AC
+15 fire resistance
+1 Fort
+2 will
to be more exact....
And finaly our cleric turner don't floor...just give negative AB/AC/saves?? while good cleric turners floors bad...add it a bump AB solar and sanctuary option and you have the most OP toon/summon ever...no thanks

[Amoenotep]

solars used to chase hipsers around without being able to see them, which is where the "solar is better than balor" argument started.

[Nyeleni]

Wow, Hond, this isn't about you or your faction. A better Solar will hardly make it harder for you. In case you didn't notice, mages still control the battlefield. And those are still not around in TC and NC...

-i always tought the better baalor/solars was clerics ones...have to be mistaken...
- it will make it hardly for me and my faction...we don't have access to solar...

It's like speaking through water. Please read what I wrote. I never mentioned that MA SL would have access to Solar. Only that it wouldn't make it harder for your factions to fight a char with a solar. For what it's worth a mage doesn't need a pet to finish another char. Spells are enough. But please be my guest and keep your objections coming. Haven't really seen one argument yet that would make it OP as you wrote before.
A sanctuary cleric with a solar? Just kill the solar...

[Bargeld]

While the cleric heals it invisibly... Just sayin'

[Rufio]

hond, most factions can do all those things that you mentioned with a balor and no one has ever complained about it. It isn't like they are controlling the battlefield, they are still just simple meleers with below average ab and damage that get really confused when they are trying to chase people around. A protection domain summoner is a nice idea, but those summons have so little AC and damage reduction that a cleric is going to have to expend an absurd amount of heals to keep it alive if someone decides to attack the summon. Those summons are only good for flanking an opponent to land a few hits, but the solar doesn't even have enough ab to do that against most enemies.

regarding your points on the solar, it actually has less AC in most cases because it doesn't get any ac from dex, so a balor with conjuration focuses or a dex buff will always have more ac than the solar. I stated this in my original post and I don't really think I should have to repeat myself. Saves hardly matter because those summons are immune to so many things and they have tons of spell resist, up to a possible 59 SR with the right focuses, so they rarely even need to make saves in pvp.

[Rufio]

Er... I didn't mean to turn this into a TC/NC vs MA/SL balance debate. I was just disapointed that solars sucked so badly and thought it would be cool if they would be useful like balors are to add some variety. AO and RK can summon them too, so this isn't just about NC. The balance of NC's prestige classes is a separate issue that I don't mind discussing, but I don't think that should influence solars.

And look at the bright side, if people build good toons to summon solars, then that is more people for you all to smite, and they are really easy to identify!