You be the dev: XP for Kill Formulae omgthissucks

[Lokey]

We've been talking about changing the xp formula, and would solicit input. Don't think numbers yet, think about what is reasonable for a player to do to reach a level, hence spreadsheet 1:

Obviously there's more grind to the current xp scheme than I thought The amount of npcs to kill to level ecl 0 for party level = cr is up for grabs.

We use this as a mob base xp then manipulate for lower and higher level parties. Messing with some exponential smoothing for now that gives us:

Bolded lower level indicates what we think are problematic, thinking about how to patch that in way easily expressed with some simple math.

We've looked at some curves (smoothing is a 1.2^(cr - level) function in this one I think). We'll find something that looks nice.

So anyway, there's lots of considerations that go into it for you armchair devs. No more than that. Still more.

So what think you? I'll try to plot out the current xp formula in a similar sheet for comparison. Please note that changing the cr of some creatures would be included in redoing the xp formula, this one is a compromise towards thinking you don't stay in the same place for levels and levels, but as you can see it's rather flat.

[Lokey]

Selected quotes from dev discussion that took place here (where it's convenient to grab).

I hate you

The old, old, old xp formula fell apart in the 20s (when we were level 25 cap or something). I patched that a bit, but there were problems so I went back to the beginning.

Went to level 40 when I wasn't around, there were headaches. I redid it from a few starting assumptions and had to make a lot of compromises:

There was a spreadsheet attached that got lost in a board upgrade. One of the fogies might have i.e. Flailer.
- Started at kill 30-40 creatures of your cr, level, slow that down a bit later. Compromises might have messed that part up.
- I certainly paid more attention to low levels making sense because that's important to me. You get a level 1 party killing a cr 9 whatever they should get nice xp.
- There's a ton of things that crop up trying to do that mathematically over the cr/level range. One version had multiple xp generating functions for different levels but dropped that because getting them to overlap was too big a headache.

Anyway, here's what I recommend (what mining did above):
- Start with the basic assumptions: kill x creatures of y level at party highest level z for z to level. (Averaging party level runs into tons of headaches best avoided, i.e. the 40 hanging around with a 1.)
- Reverse engineer xp generating functions off those assumptions.
- Plotting this in a easy to read fashion is way hard (stupid non-linear stuff). I just made a table like the above and shaded certain zones, sometimes plotting parts (I only worried about cr 8 away from player level up and down or so--then capped there up/down, but I did that by mathematically smoothing the main number down to 0 and up to 4x that number).
- Anyway, it's tricky, there's tons of pitfalls, it takes a stupid amount of checking things out to make sure you don't award like 20mill xp (breaks character) or neg (same) etc...

Are the numbers really that high 20+? just seems like a lot of xp per mob. Maybe because its hard to solo, but if you can you are flying thru the xp.

If Lokey can bless some solution then maybe do small tweaks and test. (Hard to test, as he said)

What about the idea of starting people at level 2 or 3 with some heal kits?

At the moment its a 100 XP increase over previously for equal CRing, but the XP you get for killing something of less CR is much less than before. It means you get less grindy levelling (which is a point of discontent among players - people don't level because its impossible to kill equal CR mobs in a time efficient manner, so they need to grind for forever on low CR mobs, like the overcr'd goblins, or over-hp'd dorfs.

Re: starting at 2 or 3 with some heal kits... I've been testing the start, and my only comments would be to give maybe 300 more gold and have the starting merchant sell kits. Its already pretty easy to get started as an all reccomended fighter/cleric/blah with chainmail + weapon + large shield.

I hate you

What's lost in that method is hunting bigger game and getting lots of xp. Not sure that I want to give that up, perhaps throw in a multiplier for the first couple levels of taking down something way bigger? After level 10 or so you can pretty much go anywhere and decide what you want to fight...

Really just argue out anything anyone sees as a problem, chuck it on the server when a few of us can be on and see what it looks like. Close to the weekend, and I don't like changing things then. See if we can round up a testing posse for early next week, and we'll have until then to finalize the math we like (getting to nwscript is straightforward, that'll just take a few minutes).

Big Game Hunting is great in theory, but in practice just leads to things like me going to Skara the moment I can with my fully tweaked out build... etc. Either that or harm spamming clerics that lead to an obscene amount of kills. As to at low levels: I could pay an if(level<5) {XP *= 1.4^(leveldiff);} Maxes out at about 5x at a level difference of 5 - perhaps too much, probably too much, will edit this post when I get home to test it against the actual formula.

I hate you

Meh, I guess the interesting stuff happened on irc

[mining]

Actual XP function modelled up there:
=IF($A3-5>C$1,0,($A3*1000/30*0.975^$A3)*(IF(C$1>$A3,1.095,1.5)^(IF(C$1>$A3+5,5,C$1-$A3)))

If(Level-5>CR) {[censored] all;} else {(level*1000/30*0.975^level)*(If(Level>CR) {1.095;} else {1.5} ^ (if(CR>level+5) {5;} else {CR - Level;}

In english:

Level > CR +5? You're getting nothing but loot.

Otherwise, you're getting ~33.33* your level times 0.975^level. Thats your base XP if CR = level. This does get modified by ECL - 10% loss per ECL, I believe.

Now you multiply this by a limiting or bonus function - if you're killing things below your CR, divide by 1.5^leveldifference. If they're above your CR, multiply by 1.095^(difference). To a maximum of 5 levels.

Probably end up adding in something like level < 5 and CR diff >= 5 , x2.5 XP, looks decent and gives level ones a feel-good reward for tackling something beyond there CR. Of course, powerlevelling and abusing that will probably be a slap in the face.

[Delisha Zrazorian]

Fury's input...

IOHI... what makes NS4 superior to all other NWN PWs is the hard grind... nothing is free or easy... much like the old Wizardry series, where one needed to work hard for every single point of xp...

encourages teamwork and parties and makes a high level character worth something...

why change what's working?



at your service,
DZ

[frogofpeace]

So (blows dust off Y^X key on TI-30) ...

a L1 PC killing a CR1 mob = 33*1*0.975^1 = 32 xp = 28 mobs needed to level - not so bad, I guess (I hate levelling 1-5, though)

level 40 PC killing a CR40 mob = 33.33333*40*0.975^40 = 479 xp = 62 mobs needed to level? seems a little low (the required number of mobs, not the XP)

I don't really mind the grind at the high end either - it's 1-5 that bugs me. Grinding to 40 is a little long (I think most stuff in the higher areas gives 100ish xp per kill? so 400 mobs to level from 39 to 40?), but ought to be challenging.

Sorry, Lokey, I got the sense you were giving someone the chance to provide a formula, but the I reached the limit of my higher math above. So I'm going off topic ...

I think this has been said before, but it seems like there are areas good for low/mid-30's levelling (skara, dorfs, HoD), but then the jump is to areas that I think are intended to be challenging even for 40s (Abyss, Celestia). There's stuff in between but I never level in any of them. What are Elyssium, Neg, and DE for? Fire, Water, Earth, Air? Shadow and HoK? I almost never level in any of these areas ... am I just missing out? I do go there once in a while for fun or gear. Maybe a CR bump to a couple of these areas to increase the xp/minute, thus making them more attractive at high levels?

[Amoenotep]

i want 1 xp for rats when i get high lvl


and i hate you

[Rufio]

The problem as I see it is that at level 35+, you aren't killing cr 35+ mobs very often. A cr 38 mob for instance is incredibly hard compared to a cr 30-34 mob. Very few builds will solo those, and only the most experienced players will be able to take them on in small groups. Even if you can kill them, it is a slow process as you can't take on more than one or two at once, and they often have a lot of ac, hp, and damage reduction.

I say that the rate at which the exp decays for killing a creature of a specific challenge rating should be lessened over the last 10 levels.

To make things easy on the devs, so you don't have to redo the whole exp system, I say treat the effective character level for a player character as 30 + .5*(level-30) for anyone above level 30. So at character level 31, you will be treated as level 30.5, at level 36, you will be treated as level 33, and at 40 you will be treated as level 35 for the purposes of determining exp. That way, at level 38 and 39 you can go to places like HoD Halls and the DE gauntlet with small parties and get exp that is actually geared towards your level, or you can go to places with those tough cr 38 mobs and get a more lucrative exp reward.

[Midterm]

I think the easier solution would be this:

Redo the CR for mobs.

Place not being visited enough? Bump average CR up.
Place being visited too frequently? Bump average CR down.

Make ithillids worth our time. Make Skara a level 20ish place. Make Efreets a 16ish place.

Make Celestia and Abyss mobs CR 40+. God those things are bosslike in their own respect.

[mining]

So (blows dust off Y^X key on TI-30) ...

a L1 PC killing a CR1 mob = 33*1*0.975^1 = 32 xp = 28 mobs needed to level - not so bad, I guess (I hate levelling 1-5, though)

level 40 PC killing a CR40 mob = 33*40*0.975^40 = 479 xp = 62 mobs needed to level? seems a little low (the required number of mobs, not the XP)

I'm not sure how you got those all wrong, lol.



Left is exp, right is old formula. Remember this is for ECL 0, which you will never have levelled before, lol.

[frogofpeace]

You start L1 with 100 xp, Mr. Smartypants, though I guess it takes a lot more than 40k xp to level a L40

Tep hates you

[Rufio]

I think the easier solution would be this:

Redo the CR for mobs.

Place not being visited enough? Bump average CR up.
Place being visited too frequently? Bump average CR down.

Make ithillids worth our time. Make Skara a level 20ish place. Make Efreets a 16ish place.

Make Celestia and Abyss mobs CR 40+. God those things are bosslike in their own respect.

Yeah, this makes the most sense, but might be the most work, which is why I proposed the simple change of slowing the exp decay after level 30

In my opinion we would need major CR increases in DE, DWP, HoD, Posi, Negi, Celestia, the Abyss, Elysium, and Illithids, and slight CR increases in a lot of the elemental planes, at least boot the CR of those cr 29 and 30 mobs that give terrible exp. That is a lot of mobs to look at.

I don't really like the idea of lowering the CR of mobs though. I don't want to do anything to slow down the leveling process. I refuse to waste my life grinding exp.

[Rufio]

You start L1 with 100 xp, Mr. Smartypants

Tep hates you

only if your first class is your race's favored class, otherwise you start with 0

[Ajantis.]

I'm a bit weary of this discussion, or at least doing anything dramatic, however I do feel some areas could use some help.

I think the easier solution would be this:

Redo the CR for mobs.

Place not being visited enough? Bump average CR up.
Place being visited too frequently? Bump average CR down.

Make ithillids worth our time. Make Skara a level 20ish place. Make Efreets a 16ish place.

Make Celestia and Abyss mobs CR 40+. God those things are bosslike in their own respect.

Midterm is on to something here, but I think a bigger problem needs to be addressed, which is the habitual XP / Leveling path.

This has been discussed before, and not everyone follows this path, but its a favored path for a reason, its the best places to go for XP: (Giant Mountain, Frost Dale) How can other areas be enhanced? Duskhaven get a CR bump.... South Road Tower... Bandit Hideout... Sunken Isle. These locations need so much help. New players are in a way.. prohibited from going to these places because they don't know about them. Why!? because the veteran players don't need to go there for the "great equipment" drops, because they only send their lvl 40s there to farm. If they happen to find these areas, they die, and don't go there alone again.

Now, if the XP was worth the aggravation of those areas, I would think people might be more inclined to visit there, and new players would join up, suggest a trip there, and it wouldn't be immediately shot down because giant mountain or frost dale are the more practical options.

Why not award a party with XP for traveling further from their respawn point. Instead, traveling to Sunken Isle is not worth the time/trouble. For all the great options there should be to level at from lvl 1-20. The player base has gravitated to Giant Mountain/Frost Dale for their "XP grind" because in reality, its really the only practical option. It wouldn't be a grind if the options were better.

(For the record, I don't see it as a grind, but they way so many of you insist upon going up and down giant mountain or Frost Dale caverns, I can see how you make it one. However, it really is the best option if you know your gaming time is limited, and you want to make the most of your time online by getting the best XP payout.)

[Midterm]

Now I'm going to play devil's advocate with my own suggestion:

What's to say that bumping the CR or lowering the CR will solve any problem? Will Duskhaven be the new Giant Mountain? Will we all start leveling in Forest Home instead of Dorf Home?

There needs to be some sort of dynamic CR based on the habits of players. Otherwise, the river of xp will seek the easiest course.

We already have a similar system in place: the respawn system. Even after a reset, the amount of mobs on the map will be significantly decreased.

Why don't we apply the same concept with CR? For example? An area getting overfarmed? Reduce the CR dynamically. An area underfarmed? Add the CR dynamically.

In a game I used to play, called Dofus, monster mobs would spawn with 0 stars. Every hour they have not been touched, they get an extra star. This can occur up to 10 stars. Therefore, a mob that has not been touched for 10 hours will give you 200% xp and drops.

There are many ways this could be implemented on NS4, but I will give you what I assume would be an easily programmable solution:

Have a stat counter for each "region". How you divide them up is up to you. By plane, by area, by map.

Kill a mob? Subtract from this counter. No one has visited this region for a while? Add to this counter.
CR is now a multiplier of this counter.

[Bargeld]

Currently, XP is fine until you hit 35. Soloing isn't really an option then, as it's really just a waste of time. You can solo for 4 hours and get the same xp in 30 mins with a group.

Without pLeveling, just normal play... some soloing with jobs and some small groups after, you can get to lvl 30 in less than a month. To get from 30-35 takes about 2 months, from 35-40 about 6 months. It takes even longer if you split your time between toons, which is inevitable when you hit 30+ with your first toon. You will get bored and be forced to start a new toon if you want any value from your playtime. As already mentioned, this adds value to your lvl 40, but at the cost of the new or average gamer never getting there.

Personally, I got a tip waaaay back when, from DM Kim, to level one toon at a time, otherwise you will never finish it. There is a lot of truth to that statement, but there is some reality to throw in there too. It seems like my cycles constantly end with a group similar to my current toons... a 31 36 38 39. I started that 39 a while back, and got it to 25-30 before I started the next toon. I got that to 25-30 and the first to 35, then I started the 3rd toon, etc. It's a vicious cycle that I'm sure has left many players with a vault full of 35+ toons that aren't quite 40... Help for those last few levels is what is needed.

Rufio, you posted while I was typing this, and that is a neat system, but I think reducing xp for everything across the board using that mechanism will become very painful. Imagine gobos or molemen with that in place. 2 or 3 maps then you are done and have to move. I think you would knock out a couple areas completely using a method like that.