Noob needs help with build

[Varok]

Hello, I just started here and I'm enjoying this PW much. I'm not even sure if this is on the correct board, but I have some plight. I'm not accustomed to playing on a level 40 server, and I wanted to take my old build and expand on it a little. It's built for versatility, to allow him to prepare for PvE or PvP. I'm going 10 cleric and 10 blackguard for my first 20 levels. I only miss out on 3 BAB and gain level 5 cleric spells for buffs, sneak attacks, free summon and bull's, and weapon proficiencies. Here's the character's current sheet:

• LE Cleric 10/Blackguard 4
  
  STR 15(22)
  DEX 10(12)
  CON 14
  INT 10(11)
  WIS 17(20)
  CHA 18(22)
  
  AC: 23 (27 w/tower shield)
  HP: 163
  
  Attack bonus: +15/+10/+5 (+16/+11/+6 vs Outsiders)
  
  Saves
  Fort: 19
  Ref: 11
  Will: 19
  
  BAB: 11
  SR: 0
  
  Domains: Evil (turn outsiders, neg energy spells), Magic (stoneskin and extra spells)
  
  Feats (selected only): Combat Casting, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Knockdown, Toughness
  
  Skills (modified): Concentration 18, Discipline 19, Spellcraft 11

I prefer to use 2handed weapons but the monsters I've encountered seem to almost demand a shield for this setup's AC. He's in good full plate but gets no love from the reaper without a shield.

I'm really in a dilemma at this point about what to do with the remaining 20 levels. Since base attack stops progressing normally at 20th level, I'll have to decide which of the two classes I want to take to epic, how many epic levels to take, and if a few levels in a different class would be necessary.

The build is strong, but what it's missing is decent reflex saves and AC (stoneskin only gets you so far). I thought about taking a couple levels of paladin for the bonus to saves, or maybe levels of rogue, but those seem a little bit wasteful. I also thought about monk levels but I hear that the rule is you need 5 levels of monk here if you take it, so I'll need to carefully decide around that.

So current possibilities in my mind are:
20 cleric/20 BG - no epic levels, not much to gain from 20 BG levels, seems bad
10 cleric/30 BG - still retain very good level 1-5 spells, 30 BG levels for sneaks, epic feats for BG look a little iffy
30 cleric/10 BG - retains decent BAB, gains better spell save DCs, more spells - looks good
25 cleric/10 BG/5 monk (or similar) - gains WIS bonus to AC if I remember correctly, plus previous build's perks
10 cleric/25 BG/5 monk (or similar) - Still gains wis bonus to AC, almost as many SA dice (I think -2d6 for the monk levels), melee-related epic feats - could be more survivable on the field?

Anyone care to help a noob out with not screwing up his character entirely? If the monk would be restricted on this server for this toon, what else might work? Experience, feedback, opinions, anything helps.

[VagaStorm]

Some things you need to take into considderation with that build:
* You need to take at least 5 lvls of any prc, and 5 lvls of any class you take lvls in after 20.
* Divine power gives the same number of attacks no mater what your pre 20 ab is. So if you have 16 bab pre 20, it will not give an extra attack.
* There are no perma haste items here, so travel domain is good.
* Stoneskin aint that good in pvp I believe, since you only need a +5 wep to penetrate.
* Monk gives cleve for free and should be taken b4 any blackguards lvls for a free feat.

Black guards have a kick [censored] summon her. See: http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php/Summons_Guide

[Chernobyl_Glow]

i would remind you that the same 'saves' bump from paladin is available as a blackguard. in any case, alignment changes aren't allowed so you wouldn't be able to chose paladin. so just stick with the blackguard. not a bad choice.

the other thing i would recommend is that you either choose to focus in blackguard or cleric. if you go for blackguard you'll want as much charisma as possible. this will help that big nasty summons which is your only reason for extra blackguard levels beyond 5.

focus on cleric is prolly best though for your first character. i would try for as many levels as possible. help will help your spell durations and resistance to dispel etc. high level cleric spells are nice. don't worry about your spell DC. you won't be able to get it high enough to cause people much trouble unless you really focus on it. i would cap wisdom at 19 or 20.

the last choice is weapon. if you are determined to use a 2 handed weapon it is one of the most difficult things on NS4. Especially while levelling. You will go down fast - hopefully you get some hard licks in on your opponent first and that helps you win in PVP. It won't be the case in PVE. The monsters can take 10x the punishment you can so in a battle of DPS the monsters win.

but if that is the option then definitely take the monk levels. make your build 30 cleric/ 5 monk /5 blackguard. you'll pick up about 10 ac from the monk levels including the tumble ac etc. better still though would be 30 cleric/5rogue/5 blackguard and go with the longsword and shield. basic but probably going to get you the best result. plus this will allow for Spot as a skill and clerics make pretty good spotters.

good luck and don't worry. each one of us had a pretty lousy first character.

- glow -

[Varok]

Thanks for the input guys.

@ Vaga: I was going to take the Travel domain but I ran into a problem with that when rolling my character. I was trying my best to choose domains that agreed well with my deity (Bane) and faction (MA), so Evil and Magic seemed to be the most logical choices. I didn't really understand how strict you'd be on that, so I decided to play it safe and go by the books. Another case of nice guys finishing last, eh?

Also I know about the divine power thing, but having a good BAB even without that buff is something I enjoy about the character. DP is always a good spell to have prepared, but you can save a spell slot or two if you don't have to depend on it for every trash fight. Unfortunately I didn't think about the monk levels until I was already 2 or 3 levels into BG and had cleave, but if I reroll this character in the future I'll keep all your advice in mind. My next creation is likely to be a sorcerer or wizard however (such masterful advice on those is welcome too!).

@ Glow: So it looks like I'll be keeping the sword-and-board then. I have always enjoyed using 2handers more on melee characters if it was passable, but in this case I think dying less will make for more fun and less frustration overall. So you suggest rogue levels over monk? Do monks lose their AC bonus if a shield is equipped? If that's so, then I'm guessing you suggest rogue levels for the sneaks and skill points? In that case it does sound good, especially since the build's a little bit skill-starved anyway. Would you put any points in UMD, or just tumble?

Also, as Vaga mentioned, I get a really sweet summon if I stick to blackguard levels instead. My question is this - will I be more useful in a group if I had that great summon to help out, or as a cleric with an inferior save DC? I realize summons are a lot better here but still have limited usefulness. Like fighting in narrow corridors and caves which allow only 2-3 people abreast. I'm completely unaware of what this server offers PvE-wise except the jobs around Garagoth and Avendale, so I don't really know what to prepare for.

[Shadowalker]

shield negates monks ac bonus and move bonus

A cleric and bard(pure) are the top prized additions to any party, double so in epic areas, many are unwise to impossible without a cleric. Ive built half a dozen clerics here, str mele, zen archers, hide n seakers... get to know the server changes to clerical spells. More cleric lvls the better, more duration and higher dispell resistance. I also reccomend working in full auto quicken, buff yourself and party in half the time and a must for party healing and in battle buff support.

UMD yes, 25 ranks will get you full use of scrolls and magic crafted items like dissmisal rods or improved invisibility wands. there are rings that can increase your umd but otherwise arnt as usefull in combat as those that increase your concentration or dicipiline.

two handed vrs sword n board. if solely two handed definatly go with monk as sugested, helps to compensate for ac loss. but even your sword n board build can opt to use a 2handed when in PvP. Another benifit of the board is the added dmg reduction and immunities. if you have the strth carry three shields one for each dmg type, if you have to carry your primary as tower and use lrg or small for the other two dmg types. As its not just the ac but dmg reduction/immunites.

Good luck, feel free to send me pm, or tells in game via the toons listed below.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Do monks lose their AC bonus if a shield is equipped? If that's so, then I'm guessing you suggest rogue levels for the sneaks and skill points? In that case it does sound good, especially since the build's a little bit skill-starved anyway. Would you put any points in UMD, or just tumble?.

Yup. Thats the rub. If a monk switches to the sword and board the AC is about neutral. I think using the shield would be the better option for a cleric so drop the monk levels. Since you get discipline from your blackguard - be sure and take the last one at 40 - rogue rounds out the necessary skills very well. you get tumble (a must) and spot or umd. i have a couple of characters with 40 umd which allows you to wear max level alignment restricted gear. otherwise 25 if super. sneak damage is nice and the evasion. be sure and take extend spell as a feat. and read up on DP and DF as they are changed here if you hadn't realized. also aura vs alignment. be sure to max your spell craft on a cleric level to improve your saves vs spells.

best,

- glow -

[cRaZy8or5e]

If you can get your dex to 14 (12 base and find a +2 dexterity book [this server has books which one time and one time only will increase your base ability stats by +2 or +4. A +4 book will cover a +2 book, not add to it,]) you can go two handed with monk lvls. You'll have to take at least 5 monk lvls (+1 AC) then with a buffed wisdom score of 32 (20 raw +12 gear and buffs = +11 AC) and then with 26 dex (14 dex +12 gear and buffs = +8) your AC will exceed heavy plate and a tower shield. Additionally you'll get better reflex saves since you won't suffer the dex check that heavy plate hits you with.

However, for sheer playability, sword and board is easier for a first time toon. But if you have your heart set on a two hander, a cleric/mk/bg could be really fun. Monk makes taking bg levels easier because it meets your pre-req's for free .

I can't stress enough how much nicer having autoquicken is for a cleric. I've done melee clerics without it and I'll never go back. If you don't get your timing right, and hit that cast at the very beginning of a round, those seconds you sit there waiting can seem like an eternity lol. You can definitely play without it, but Autoquicken is well worth the feats, provided you go the cleric route anyhow.

[Varok]

Thanks! I'm thinking I'll go 30cleric/5bg/5monk, taking the monk levels as soon as I can get my dex up to 14. I'll be sure to take auto quicken when it comes up as well. I decided on monk instead of rogue because I'm missing out on the level 1 rogue skill points. While I'm still technically losing a feat if I go with monk, trading a feat for good AC without a shield is worth it.

So I'll be armorless and shieldless, but with really nice spells and a big stick. I don't really intend to play the character as a back-line full blown cleric, though the build will be capable of that if need be. Aside from the few no-save spells I'll have, my spell slots will be filled with buffs and summon spells.

The only thing left to decide is which skills to take. ITT tumble, UMD, and spot have been suggested. Since I won't have UMD as a monk, I'll need only worry about the other two. I might need to find an INT tome to get everything I need.

The character has already lost out on the free feat from monk, and the beginning level skill points, but I should be able to work it into something halfway playable.

Any last words of advice before I take my 11th cleric level?

[frogofpeace]

Any last words of advice before I take my 11th cleric level?

Stay out of Daeron! (But welcome to NS4)

[Shadowalker]

if our planing on usig lots of summons.. read the wiki on summons and the ways to enhace, ie spell focus conjuration (is also boosts your SoV) this will increase to power of summon 1-9, planal summons and epic spell Dragon KNight. Or necro focus for undead summons, but since your BG is only to lvl 5 then id recomend conj focus of the two.

If your playing a non ecl race, then you can always opt to stop lvling at say 30ish (enough lvls for full auto quicken) and then use the toon to supply yourself with Raise Dead scrolls. RD scrolls can not be bought anywhere in the game, cept from other players. So havine a source of them is very handy, the toon will also be able to mount rescues os your future toons.

As frog says above.. avoid Daeron and Melencia, where we deal death with a smile. Welcome to Aetheria.

[Varok]

Excellent point about the RD scrolls, and I was not aware of that. I'll also heed your warnings about Daeron and Melencia. However before I start leveling another toon, I'll want to have a good understanding of most of the challenges and changes this PW offers. If that is fulfilled by level 30 I may just do that.

Everyone's been amazingly helpful so far. I think I'll enjoy my stay in Aetheria nicely. If anyone who isn't interested in gutting me needs a level 15 "fun build" in your group, don't hesitate to ask.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

One last thing to consider - Its not too late to start over...

Seriously, as your first character, you may not realize the grind of getting to 40. i believe that once you hit 30 you're halfway there. (seriously).

so, if you're having fun, carry on. no harm in what you have working. but you could also realize that a dex based sword and board version might just work even better. Revamp and start again. No shame in it. You'll able to reconsider your Domain choices, the Rogue levels at start up, etc. No matter what, if you continue to play here, one day you'll find that this guy was your first characters on NS4. He might be 14 or 34 or 40. but he'll have his flaws. Fix them now or with a rebuild. Its a tough realization but it might save you some time.

Start a new character.

- Glow -

[mining]

One last thing to consider - Its not too late to start over...

Seriously, as your first character, you may not realize the grind of getting to 40. i believe that once you hit 30 you're halfway there. (seriously).

so, if you're having fun, carry on. no harm in what you have working. but you could also realize that a dex based sword and board version might just work even better. Revamp and start again. No shame in it. You'll able to reconsider your Domain choices, the Rogue levels at start up, etc. No matter what, if you continue to play here, one day you'll find that this guy was your first characters on NS4. He might be 14 or 34 or 40. but he'll have his flaws. Fix them now or with a rebuild. Its a tough realization but it might save you some time.

Start a new character.

- Glow -

Depends on ECL. I'd say 35 myself.

As for a 1st build, apparently you can't go wrong with a pure bard, or a Dragonshape build that gets dragonshape nice and early.

Also, try to make something that doesn't rely on some gimmick, in case it isn't as good as you thought it was.

[Varok]

One last thing to consider - Its not too late to start over...

Seriously, as your first character, you may not realize the grind of getting to 40. i believe that once you hit 30 you're halfway there. (seriously).

so, if you're having fun, carry on. no harm in what you have working. but you could also realize that a dex based sword and board version might just work even better. Revamp and start again. No shame in it. You'll able to reconsider your Domain choices, the Rogue levels at start up, etc. No matter what, if you continue to play here, one day you'll find that this guy was your first characters on NS4. He might be 14 or 34 or 40. but he'll have his flaws. Fix them now or with a rebuild. Its a tough realization but it might save you some time.

Start a new character.

- Glow -

Depends on ECL. I'd say 35 myself.

As for a 1st build, apparently you can't go wrong with a pure bard, or a Dragonshape build that gets dragonshape nice and early.

Also, try to make something that doesn't rely on some gimmick, in case it isn't as good as you thought it was.

Good advice. I wouldn't be posting my questions in this forum if I took my decisions lightly however. I know my character is going to be sub-par, but if there's something that makes it unplayable please feel free to point it out.

If I were to roll another character, I would actually want to try a shifter out on this server, as I've never had the chance to on the campaigns or other places. Any vital tips on that build?

[mining]

One last thing to consider - Its not too late to start over...

Seriously, as your first character, you may not realize the grind of getting to 40. i believe that once you hit 30 you're halfway there. (seriously).

so, if you're having fun, carry on. no harm in what you have working. but you could also realize that a dex based sword and board version might just work even better. Revamp and start again. No shame in it. You'll able to reconsider your Domain choices, the Rogue levels at start up, etc. No matter what, if you continue to play here, one day you'll find that this guy was your first characters on NS4. He might be 14 or 34 or 40. but he'll have his flaws. Fix them now or with a rebuild. Its a tough realization but it might save you some time.

Start a new character.

- Glow -

Depends on ECL. I'd say 35 myself.

As for a 1st build, apparently you can't go wrong with a pure bard, or a Dragonshape build that gets dragonshape nice and early.

Also, try to make something that doesn't rely on some gimmick, in case it isn't as good as you thought it was.

Good advice. I wouldn't be posting my questions in this forum if I took my decisions lightly however. I know my character is going to be sub-par, but if there's something that makes it unplayable please feel free to point it out.

If I were to roll another character, I would actually want to try a shifter out on this server, as I've never had the chance to on the campaigns or other places. Any vital tips on that build?

Ooh, well to start with, go human or wild elf for your first build. ECL 0 is the way to go for a 1st build.

A Druid/Shifter based on getting Dragon, Construct, Outsider shapes, will be fairly successful. I'd suggest WF in club, for DemonFlesh Shifter. Max out wisdom, with 14 int and some dex and con. PPreepic, the STR based forms are easiest to level. The wiki is very accurate too. make sure you get mac disc.

Oh, and if you want construct shape etc. you must be pure druid/shifter.