Low Magic DOES NOT mean no magic

[sep caldessian]

well yeah heres the quick fix:

remove ALL damage resistance and immunity items. every single one. the balance for this is that mages with lower AC and HP than a fighter will be as susceptable (sp) to physical attacks as a fighter is to magical attacks. the mage has AC and shielding buffs. the fighter gets his choice of armors, and the mage has his choice of spells. some races have innate elemental and spell resistance, in trade for a higher ECL. that helps defray damage from popular mage spells. when the mage buffs run out (apparently now 1 round/level - which is pretty short.) he is toast.

fighters can still spam IKD, so the mage should counter with items that boost discipline. mages can still fall back on IGMS. fighters should find somethign that uses shield spell per day (perhaps Isaac's Full Plate?)

with the removal of ALL damage resist/immunity, the outrage of not having damage upped on weapons should subside, as mages with dam. im. or res. was a large part of the argument why weapons need upped.

[RunarSterk]

well yeah heres the quick fix:

remove ALL damage resistance and immunity items.

Luckily for me, I haven't experienced this imbalance being discussed personally (avoid PVP fairly successfully so far), but from the descriptions here some of it sounds serious. This suggestion seems like a very simple thing to test. At least, much simpler than messing around with rest rates, spells, etc. If anything's to change I also like the idea of it being a change that affects everyone, not just one group of players. Seems it would help to avoid all the "you just are mad because you're char this and that" etc. responses. Would it cause a problem with making NPCs too difficult? I don't think so, but I haven't reached a high enough level to know yet.

[Chimaira]

I also dont like spell immunity...I have only been taking the example of "How about we make everything spell immune" To somewhat try to reach the level the PGer mages are, so far they have been able to avoid the question. Isaacs is already changed, all that needs a bit of tweaking is the damage. CL can be taken as an example as to how strong isaacs should be, at lvl 20 CL can do no damage, 120 damage, or 60 damage. So in general it should be weaker then CL dealing damage, since isaacs has uses against rogues. Maximized at lvl 20 it should do around 60-70 damage, something similar to a saved CL anyway. But CL normally stacks up to level 40, dealing 240 damage, which is actually quite good since at level 40 most mages are reduced to spamming non nerfed isaacs and ice storm since isaacs is plain nuts in dealing damage and ice storm is one of few spells that actually stacks AND is supposed to. So if it isnt modified and it still stacks(maybe bioware fixed it...dunno bout that) then isaacs should improve all the way untill it deals around 120 damage at lvl 40.

[Joran]

One of the problems with posting breakdowns of Class X vs Class Y and listing all the ways they can counter each other, is that it avoids dealing with the real-game situations. Sure, a mage can get high resistance to a monk's fists, but that would leave that mage highly vulnerable to a sword or other non-bludgeoning weapon (say, a kama, or one of the many high-level gloves with extra piercing/slashing damage).

The only time resistances and immunities become a large problem is if they are allowed to stack as in NS3 and give one character high immunities to ALL types of damage, making them nearly invulnerable. In NS4, every character has strengths and weaknesses, the challenge is simply to find those and use them to your advantage.

[Chimaira]

And the problem with that is some people will just carry around 3 tower shields to counter every damage type.

[dond]

that's where SoU toys come in

those flasks that drop give elemental damage for x period of time (maybe boost the duration on those?)

and again, paladins are sweet because they can use divine might and divine favor!

[Chimaira]

Yea so lets all play paladins because fighters are pointless anyway.
A paladin is NOT a fighter. A paladin is a fighter that can cast some really good buffs but has to sacrefice stat points and feats for it, that balances them whenever both paladins and fighters can deal damage, therefore paladins will only suffer big time when items with damage resist in divine and magical are put in(which is pretty silly anyway), damage resistance and immunity to physicals only makes them stronger towards regular melee classes since most of their damage isnt physical anyway(a part of it is, so they become slightly weaker vs casters, but not useless in extreme amounts). So far only true fighters and PrCs are massively reduced in power, WM seems to be the perfect example.

[JesterOI]

And the problem with that is some people will just carry around 3 tower shields to counter every damage type.

I do!!! But mostly only str based warriors can do that because those shields can get heavy... But that makes sense.

[Joran]

And the problem with that is some people will just carry around 3 tower shields to counter every damage type.

Right, like Jester said - if you want to lug around an extra 45 pounds like that, go right ahead. Fortunately, that option is not very feasible for a mage, limiting their ability to become highly resistant to attacks.

[Æ]

A mage can easily carry 3 robes around, and all he has to do is keep his distance (easy to do with haste) casting spells as his summons fight and you CAN switch armor in battle, I do it with my fighter all the time, just take a few steps away. My fighter gladly carries around 200 pounds of armor and tower shields and can still carry plenty more. The problem is he also can't switch to an armor that will defend against isaacs of ice storm or chain lightning, etc., they way a mage can say "oh look he has a [censored] aword, I'll switch to the slashing robe"

I'm sorry, but you have the wrong approach about this... the Dev's seem to think it creates fairness and equality to put all the same powers on every type of armor of comparable level, whether it be cloth or plate. But some things need to be reserved for certain classes, meleers need physical defence, mages don't... they have their own defensive strengths and should be weak against physical attacks... if they are not then there's nothing anyone other than another mage can do to stop him, not even a cleric stands a chance once he puts up spell mantle.

The surrent gear setup creaties weaknesses for non caster classes, and completely covers up the only weakness of a mage... You say every character has weaknesses, but mages really don't anymore, and this HAS to change before there's nothing but mages in all of the realms of neversummer and it becomes completely chaotic and pretty monotonous, and a boring "whoever casts the first spell wins" situation.

[JesterOI]

What about adding +1 uni saves for each +# and armor has on it?
Elite Steel would have +3 ac and +3 uni save...

[Æ]

+3 wouldnt' do much against DC 35 death magic when a fighter's base fortitude save at lvl 20 is only like 18 with good con

although there should definately be save bonuses on items, alot of them... should be able to get that save up to at least 30 so you have as chance of survival (maybe bonuses just to death magic saves on some gear)

[Hulgaru]

So much to be said and unsaid on a topic like this...

I’ve been a long time (recreational, not junking out for 8 hours a day) fighter/Barby player and I can tell you, hands down, that there a feeling of being at a disadvantage to a fighter or a barby. My reasons are myriad, and I apologize to the souls that have labored already on this thread, so I hope my addition won’t be retreading ground already covered... that said:

I really don’t have any way to counsel the developers into making wholesale changes to the mod that restricts or hinders spell casters. All I can say is this: Simply put, the original game favors spell casters. The bottom line (in the original game, mind you) is that spell casters simply have more options available to them. Be it paladins, rangers, bards, clerics, druids, mages, sorcies, rogues or their resultant prestige classes… these classes have more options. Barbys and Fighters have their advantages, but their lack of flexibility restrains them from competing on a level playing field from the other classes. Paladins have immunities, spells, and smite. Rangers have spells, followers, special enemies, and bonus feats. Rogues have skills and special feats (try to tell me that Uncanny Dodge or Evasion aren’t worth it?). Druids have followers, different forms, abilities and a host of spells. Clerics have powers over undead and a host of spells. Mages and Sorcies have hosts of spells, followers, metafeats and items at their disposal. Mind you this list doesn’t even touch on the ability of summoned creatures.

Broken down:

Pallys: Abilities, spells, limited cleric abilities
Rangers: Bonus feats, Favored Enemies, Spells, Animal Follower
Clerics: Powers over undead, Spell selection
Druids: Shapechange, Spells, Animal Follower
Wizards: Familiar, Metamagic feats, Spell selection
Sorcerors: Familiar, Spell Selection, cast on a whim
Bards: Spells, bard song
Rogues: Backstab, Awesome Skill Selection, traps, Bonus feats
Monks: Insane abilities at the expense of limited weapon selection… (IMHO a very positive tradeoff for the monk…)

Then you have:
Barby: Best HP, Rage, increased movement, dam reduct and uncanny dodge at higher levels
Fighter: weapon and armor selection, feats every 2 levels.

While fighters <u>can</u> be feat whores… no feat chosen will equal what the other classes have for abilities. What is more, other classes can choose the feats that the fighter gets (with the exception of weapon specialization); so where then is the incentive to go pure fighter? Barbys get some nice abilities (Uncanny Dodge, D12 hit die) but then again… not really all that superlative when considering the capabilities of the summons on NS4. Please understand, I’m not saying that the devs deliberately slanted things in favor of spellcasters… the game was already slanted that way. What I’d like is the devs to try and tilt that slant a little back toward the pure melee types.

Don’t think the game was slanted against non-spell casters? Which classes can cause elemental damage as a matter of course? Can summon extra fighting creatures with no exp penalty? Can hide, cure wounds, and recover status ailments without spending sums of cash?

All I am suggesting is that the developers consider adding in more items that benefit pure fighters or pure barbys. Items that add elemental damage, give immunity to certain spell schools (why not, there’s reduction and damage immunity for physical damage. And when is the last time you saw an item in NS3 or 4 that gave immunity to a spell school???) If a fighter or a barby has to dual-class to become a viable character… what does that say about the original character class?

And finally:
To those of people that ardently reply to posts like this with “MY such and such a character doesn’t have that problem…” Thanks. It’s fantastic that you have that building ability, or have spent the time to create your formula; however, I ask you, how does this invalidate the claim of the post? All it says is that you’ve built your character well. Either share the builds so others aren’t tortured, or help out in another way please.

Thanks all for listening… I eagerly await the opinions of the masses.

The ‘Naut. (and OkieKong)

[DrakhanValane]

Three words: Death Ward Potion.

[Hulgaru]

Heh, almost forgot that Bards and Rogues also get that Use Magical Item skill as well... sheesh.

on top of that, I think I misslabeled (in the first paragraph) rogues and monks as spellcasters... they're not... but they still have more options. nyah!