How to compare builds
Re: How to compare builds
1. There an engine limit at 127? This is not a soft limit, this includes all bonuses from feats, stats, items ++
2. It's hard to get 127 spot. You can only ever get +50 from items(easy to getfor a caster). 43 + 50 = 93, which means you'll have to get 34 from feats+stat(wis). You can get 19 from feats(excluding ranger). To get 15 from wis you'll need a base stat of 28, which is much for anything but a zen archer or a caster cleric. On the other hand, you can go extreeme and max wisfor 20+4+10+8+12 = 54 = 22
2. It's hard to get 127 spot. You can only ever get +50 from items(easy to getfor a caster). 43 + 50 = 93, which means you'll have to get 34 from feats+stat(wis). You can get 19 from feats(excluding ranger). To get 15 from wis you'll need a base stat of 28, which is much for anything but a zen archer or a caster cleric. On the other hand, you can go extreeme and max wisfor 20+4+10+8+12 = 54 = 22
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VagaStorm
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Re: How to compare builds
agreed. 127 spot is incredibly difficult. I have a spotter with 26 base wis, 3 feats in spot, and +2 racial spot bonus that gets 124 spot with a full +50 buff, and that is an extremely dedicated spotter.
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Re: How to compare builds
VagaStorm wrote:1. There an engine limit at 127? This is not a soft limit, this includes all bonuses from feats, stats, items ++
2. It's hard to get 127 spot. You can only ever get +50 from items(easy to getfor a caster). 43 + 50 = 93, which means you'll have to get 34 from feats+stat(wis). You can get 19 from feats(excluding ranger). To get 15 from wis you'll need a base stat of 28, which is much for anything but a zen archer or a caster cleric. On the other hand, you can go extreeme and max wisfor 20+4+10+8+12 = 54 = 22
Tested it, it SEEMS to count, 150 hide gets by 130 spot every time, vice versa with 130/150
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.
Re: How to compare builds
agreed, fafnir has EVERY spot feat and something like 20-24 base wis, cant remember right now, maxes out at 125 spot (127 if the racial bonus from elf doesnt count on the sheet or towards the cap), again an extremely dedicated spotter, but even with all that, some people can still blink from him at times, its always a roll with the advantage going to the hips spammer.Rufio wrote:agreed. 127 spot is incredibly difficult. I have a spotter with 26 base wis, 3 feats in spot, and +2 racial spot bonus that gets 124 spot with a full +50 buff, and that is an extremely dedicated spotter.
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Re: How to compare builds
And as Mining pointed out, once a spotter goes into combat, the HiPSer gets a +10 advantage. You essentially have to have 15 more ranks in spot/listen than the HiPS MS/Hide skill to have better odds at seeing them than have of being able to HiPS again.
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I'm having deja vu . . .
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Re: How to compare builds
What about a non-HiPS sneaker (my PRC)? To dedicate 100% to sneaking you need 5 feats total. A spotter needs to take 2, maybe 3 for alertness. Assassins typically need BOTH, thats 7 or 8 feats, and all the gear.
Its 127 vs 127, of course it's a numbers game. I already stated that spamming hips was trump. And I agree, it takes a dedicated spotter to hit these caps. It takes a dedicated sneaky too! Only it takes more gear for the sneaky (meaning less gear for other things; disc rings, chr cloaks, dual damage armors, no shields except 1). You can have a dedicated spotting caster in group and he can give +50 to everyone.
Its 127 vs 127, of course it's a numbers game. I already stated that spamming hips was trump. And I agree, it takes a dedicated spotter to hit these caps. It takes a dedicated sneaky too! Only it takes more gear for the sneaky (meaning less gear for other things; disc rings, chr cloaks, dual damage armors, no shields except 1). You can have a dedicated spotting caster in group and he can give +50 to everyone.
Bargeld wrote:Spamming HiPS doesn't count as 'playing it well'. Nor will it hide you from the 120 spotter listeners (reliably). Besides, using the game mechanics like that just isn't fun nor in the spirit of good play.
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Re: How to compare builds
Bargeld you're just wrong .Bargeld wrote:What about a non-HiPS sneaker (my PRC)? To dedicate 100% to sneaking you need 5 feats total. A spotter needs to take 2, maybe 3 for alertness. Assassins typically need BOTH, thats 7 or 8 feats, and all the gear.
Its 127 vs 127, of course it's a numbers game. I already stated that spamming hips was trump. And I agree, it takes a dedicated spotter to hit these caps. It takes a dedicated sneaky too! Only it takes more gear for the sneaky (meaning less gear for other things; disc rings, chr cloaks, dual damage armors, no shields except 1). You can have a dedicated spotting caster in group and he can give +50 to everyone.Bargeld wrote:Spamming HiPS doesn't count as 'playing it well'. Nor will it hide you from the 120 spotter listeners (reliably). Besides, using the game mechanics like that just isn't fun nor in the spirit of good play.
Here's why.
The 127 cap (where did this idea come from) is a myth. The engine goes far beyond that. Tested by mining, reported on by linux I believe in other threads. Get it out of your head, 127 cap doesn't exist!
Once you get into combat, a sneak gets +10 to their hide and ms skill vs a spotter/listener. A dedicated 4 feat spotter that isn't wisdom based ends up at 110-115 spot. Wisdom based spotters can get around 120-125, Bane builds can get 130-135.
SO take your worst case scenario 135 bane build spotter taking on an uber sneak ghostwise 125 hide Mcninja copy and yes at the outset he can spot mcninja. But once combat ensues its an even game. But actually its not. BECAUSE the sneak gets the initiative. And in that game, initiative is the deciding factor, ALWAYS. Game changers aside (time stop, hellball, running for your life and using a transition to reset the battlefield) the sneak has all the advantages. Well a well played sneak keeps the initiative. One that tries to rest on his laurels(stay hidden) for more than a couple seconds before attacking again is goin to lose that all important initiative. But anyway, the spotter/HiPSer game gives the HiPSer a lot of advantages that, provided the HiPSer is well played, he can use to his benefit.
AFTER having said all that, do I think that the way things are now should be changed? Bah, I gave up caring a long time ago.
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Re: How to compare builds
My point isn't about HiPSers, get that out of YOUR head. My point is about my corner darkness sneaking PRC. I get inititive 1x and I get very few of those nifty bonuses that you speak of - both sneak and detect.
Do i care about HiPS getting nerfed? No. People want to spam it - w/e. We can still spot them and the HiPSer always loses when the spotter is around. In the real world that is the outcome. You may be able to point out 1 single SD build that might come close to challenging that notion. Move away from that one HiPS build and I am right.
Let me bring it all back together:
Everyone except SL gets a PRC that has potential to be a supurb melee class.
NC/TC have PRCs that provide a plethora of melee options (multiple shifter forms, multiple CoT combos, PDK combos).
Everyone except AO gets HiPS. But they get RDD which I think we all agree is a challenge to the shifters that we speak of.
Everyone except NC & TC gets an arcane (but NC/TC gets the melee strength anyway).
My base point is that SL gets NO unique good ANYTHING, except assassin. And if you go back through the pages, everyone from every faction concedes that assassin is the wimpiest and most limited PRC out there. Toss us a bone!
(multiclass CoT in NC is the only way to make an AQ3 dc 48 imploder even! All mages have to fight against +4 death save items.)
This all came about because I ran out of inspiration for builds. And all of this is why, SL gets the short stick and I became unmotivated. I'm just looking for a bone to get tossed to help even the fields for the FUN factor. If you notice, DD has lost a lot of the players we had from a year ago. We excelled then just due to raw numbers and getting a jump on the server wipe by having more 40s than anyone else. Now that the number of players is all evened out, you can see that we haven't been much of a force. This makes the holes in our options stand out to me.
And yeah, i wouldn't think you'd care... you're not from SL.
Do i care about HiPS getting nerfed? No. People want to spam it - w/e. We can still spot them and the HiPSer always loses when the spotter is around. In the real world that is the outcome. You may be able to point out 1 single SD build that might come close to challenging that notion. Move away from that one HiPS build and I am right.
Let me bring it all back together:
Everyone except SL gets a PRC that has potential to be a supurb melee class.
NC/TC have PRCs that provide a plethora of melee options (multiple shifter forms, multiple CoT combos, PDK combos).
Everyone except AO gets HiPS. But they get RDD which I think we all agree is a challenge to the shifters that we speak of.
Everyone except NC & TC gets an arcane (but NC/TC gets the melee strength anyway).
My base point is that SL gets NO unique good ANYTHING, except assassin. And if you go back through the pages, everyone from every faction concedes that assassin is the wimpiest and most limited PRC out there. Toss us a bone!
(multiclass CoT in NC is the only way to make an AQ3 dc 48 imploder even! All mages have to fight against +4 death save items.)
This all came about because I ran out of inspiration for builds. And all of this is why, SL gets the short stick and I became unmotivated. I'm just looking for a bone to get tossed to help even the fields for the FUN factor. If you notice, DD has lost a lot of the players we had from a year ago. We excelled then just due to raw numbers and getting a jump on the server wipe by having more 40s than anyone else. Now that the number of players is all evened out, you can see that we haven't been much of a force. This makes the holes in our options stand out to me.
And yeah, i wouldn't think you'd care... you're not from SL.
Death Dealers ::DD::
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Re: How to compare builds
My dedicated spotter can see most sd's, most of the time
but yeah, running and spamming hips they will get away from him
but even thou, hips vs seakers its a numbers game
eventually you will hide from them unless they just have that much spot
that your numbers wont allow it, and any decent hipster thats not gonna happen
Xirt was made to spot, althou he can hips, his hide/ms isnt the greatest,
but he was made to spot rather than hips,
Hipsters worste nightmare, another hipster that can see them
fun toon to play even after he was nerfed 8ac
which is the subject of this thread
Mamba...
but yeah, running and spamming hips they will get away from him
but even thou, hips vs seakers its a numbers game
eventually you will hide from them unless they just have that much spot
that your numbers wont allow it, and any decent hipster thats not gonna happen
Xirt was made to spot, althou he can hips, his hide/ms isnt the greatest,
but he was made to spot rather than hips,
Hipsters worste nightmare, another hipster that can see them
fun toon to play even after he was nerfed 8ac
which is the subject of this thread
Mamba...
Re: How to compare builds
A cap is a cap to the skill value of the individual player at any given time. If a toon has bonuses up to 141, their skill from the purposes of the engine is still 127. They get hit with a bard, they drop from 141 to 133, still from the engine's standpoint you have 127. Hit em with a dirge, -6 to abilities, meaning -3 to the skill... down from 133 to 130. The engine still stores their skill @ 127.cRaZy8or5e wrote:The 127 cap (where did this idea come from) is a myth. The engine goes far beyond that. Tested by mining, reported on by linux I believe in other threads. Get it out of your head, 127 cap doesn't exist!
Once you get to a roll it takes that 127 and then adds and subtracts the CIRCUMSTANCE modifiers.
This is straightforward to me. If linux has tested and comfirmed that 127 is not the cap that a characters skill has before going into a roll, I would ask that maybe he confirm or deny my proposition, because it makes complete programming sense to me. The final values can change once the roll has occurred based on those 'circumstance' modifiers and can go above your 127. That doesn't mean that the toon had higher than 127 going into that roll.
Death Dealers ::DD::
Laufer - Gemetzel - Force - Little Fist - Egil - Torture - Hatshepsu - Nemesis - Hierophant - Supernaut - Flesh Hound - Insurrection - Antithesis - Dead of Winter - Volcanus 2000
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Re: How to compare builds
The pilgrams had less to devoure than the plethara of facts, innuendos and assumptions listed in this thread. And despite my time here (going on two years) I still feel quite the noob next to all the old time relics playing in Aetheria.
Ive a few shifters/twigs: Some might say the fact that Im building so many shifters proves their OP. Anyone that knows me, knows that I like to explore possibilites in game. Hence b4 shifters I built 8 clerics 4 of them 40 and all over lvl 30.
>The dreaded GOLEM Twig.. has been killed (or forced to flee for dear life) one on one by several diffrent toons and builds types.. not providing examples, figure it out for yourself, enjoy the challendge.
>Tiger Twig: two of them are still under assembly, trying diffrent variants and so far it seams they will be usefull for diffrent application, thus deciding which is best will be tricky as they fill diffrent needs. Keep in mind that no one tiger fills these roles, but im am making 3 'diffrent' builds to explore this so thats 120 levels of ecl3 grind. And while the lable says Large Dire Tiger, it is in fact a medium creature, with no size bonuses when attempting say KD. But it does have all the manuveing trouble of a lrg/huge critter.
>A shifter worth its salt is a focused shifter and there by specialized, being considerably less than intended if it takes any form other than the one built for.
>Was gonna go on, but fudge, its not my responsibility to teach others how to kill twig.
>>Assassins could use a lil love, they obvisly went huged enough as children<<
Ive a few shifters/twigs: Some might say the fact that Im building so many shifters proves their OP. Anyone that knows me, knows that I like to explore possibilites in game. Hence b4 shifters I built 8 clerics 4 of them 40 and all over lvl 30.
>The dreaded GOLEM Twig.. has been killed (or forced to flee for dear life) one on one by several diffrent toons and builds types.. not providing examples, figure it out for yourself, enjoy the challendge.
>Tiger Twig: two of them are still under assembly, trying diffrent variants and so far it seams they will be usefull for diffrent application, thus deciding which is best will be tricky as they fill diffrent needs. Keep in mind that no one tiger fills these roles, but im am making 3 'diffrent' builds to explore this so thats 120 levels of ecl3 grind. And while the lable says Large Dire Tiger, it is in fact a medium creature, with no size bonuses when attempting say KD. But it does have all the manuveing trouble of a lrg/huge critter.
>A shifter worth its salt is a focused shifter and there by specialized, being considerably less than intended if it takes any form other than the one built for.
>Was gonna go on, but fudge, its not my responsibility to teach others how to kill twig.
>>Assassins could use a lil love, they obvisly went huged enough as children<<
Twig (TSS) - Twig [CLAD] - Twigs -Fury- - SyNfully Rotted Twig - Twig'lee -Down Under- - Twig'zilla
Fergus Glonshire [FoN] - Sakij Lovac [FoN] - Zatharus Rivermoon (TSS) - Bumble (TSS) - Body built for SyN
Fergus Glonshire [FoN] - Sakij Lovac [FoN] - Zatharus Rivermoon (TSS) - Bumble (TSS) - Body built for SyN
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Re: How to compare builds
FYI. My challenge was to name a 10 RDD not a 30 RDD. Some claim that 10 RDD is overpowered. 30RDD is a different story and has already been balanced.
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My good man this actually proves my point. You're flat wrong. We have approximately 15, 40 level characters with 10 RDD. They can't all have been poor builds. And sure, some of them were Tensor's builds that got nerfed to ~65 AC with the EMA nerf. Those went from amusing to worthless. But still, you under the impression that we haven't made 10RDD builds. This is because not a single one made you raise an eyebrow.burrahobbit wrote:I cant name any 10 RDD that changed the outcome of a fight because your not making them. That's your fault not ours.
None taken. I don't think it was me... (hides)burrahobbit wrote:P.P.P.S If you run into a room crowded with CoT's with a 55 ac char, dont complain about how fast you die. That doesnt make CoT's over powered, it makes you stupid. <------when i say "you" i dont mean GLOW
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Re: How to compare builds
That would only make sense if 1) the skill field is a signed 8 bit integer, 2) the final calculation uses a larger data type (e.g. 16 bit integer). Even then, they would need to have some overflow protection with the skill field to prevent your skills from "rolling over" to -125 or something like that.If linux has tested and comfirmed that 127 is not the cap that a characters skill has before going into a roll, I would ask that maybe he confirm or deny my proposition, because it makes complete programming sense to me. The final values can change once the roll has occurred based on those 'circumstance' modifiers and can go above your 127. That doesn't mean that the toon had higher than 127 going into that roll.
I suppose the other option is 3) they specifically coded in the logic to restrict skills to 127 or less. Given that the number is 127, I'm betting this is unlikely because it's precisely at the maximum value for a signed 8 bit integer. However, that would explain why people's skill values don't overflow and kill their character when they get "too skilled".
Thus ends another off topic branch of conversation.
Bargeld wrote:It's been shown in past relic events even, if NC actually has a decent amount of players involved, they will win.
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Re: How to compare builds
Actually they COULD have been poorly built, and even IF they weren't poorly built they were obviously poorly played OR it could be that we don't know what builds are what. The only strength builds I've seen frequently running around in AO that aren't pure fighters or RDD dragons are Bakura and Exile. And those were tensor builds that didn't get the AB to kill any high AC builds. They were tough but not nearly as tough as what's possible.Chernobyl_Glow wrote: My good man this actually proves my point. You're flat wrong. We have approximately 15, 40 level characters with 10 RDD. They can't all have been poor builds.
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And then there were the ftr/bard/RDD's, Cereal Killa and wakefield(i think), who have always dropped the hammer on people and you know that too. BUT you hardly ever see them, but Killer AB on those two that's for sure. There you go, there's 2 10RDD builds that really hurt people's feelings.
No it doesnt'. According to testing by mining, a 150 hider always hid from a 130 spotter. And vice versa, a 150 spotter always saw a 130 hider. Now if there was a 127 cap, that wouldn't happen because circumstance modifiers should allow for an equaling of the playing field making it about the same either way. In fact it should have shown that a HiPSer would be able to hide regardless once combat was engaged due to the circumstance modifiers being in the HiPSer's favor. However that was not the case. I'd have to have Mining give exact details about what circumstance modifiers were included in the testing (ie light emitting objects, environmental factors, etc).Bargeld wrote:A cap is a cap to the skill value of the individual player at any given time. If a toon has bonuses up to 141, their skill from the purposes of the engine is still 127. They get hit with a bard, they drop from 141 to 133, still from the engine's standpoint you have 127. Hit em with a dirge, -6 to abilities, meaning -3 to the skill... down from 133 to 130. The engine still stores their skill @ 127.cRaZy8or5e wrote:The 127 cap (where did this idea come from) is a myth. The engine goes far beyond that. Tested by mining, reported on by linux I believe in other threads. Get it out of your head, 127 cap doesn't exist!
Once you get to a roll it takes that 127 and then adds and subtracts the CIRCUMSTANCE modifiers.
This is straightforward to me. If linux has tested and comfirmed that 127 is not the cap that a characters skill has before going into a roll, I would ask that maybe he confirm or deny my proposition, because it makes complete programming sense to me. The final values can change once the roll has occurred based on those 'circumstance' modifiers and can go above your 127. That doesn't mean that the toon had higher than 127 going into that roll.
BUT back to your PRC. Oh yeah I said that its the hardest to play and the weakest of the PRC's. So we're in agreement there. You don't like that an assassin has to take 5 feats to have a chance at maintaining their stealthiness? Ummm they're a class who's best abilites are dependent on stealth. You don't have to build for stealth but if you want to be able to use their cool tricks, you better build for stealth. Try a small stature creature and metagame like Mcninja, see what you can come up with. Assassins are not really designed with being some sort of offensive juggernaut, so trying to compare them to the other PRC's is silly. They're ambushers, and as such you need the element of surprise to be effective. IF you want an assassin to be an offensive juggernaut, you have to forget about its death attack and stealth and become some sort of dex tank. It's actually not half bad, though as stated its not much better than a rogue (though the ethereal abilities can be nice to get outta trouble). The only faction with more build options than SL is RK, from a build perspective only. Once you throw in races, RK is actually a bit more limited than SL. Michael Jackson the only player in SL who can roll a mage/sd? Why not try a non sd mage? Magic users can kill everything, though mages do require that a person realize they're very likely goin to take a dirt nap. But if they can get circumstances to work in their favor, they can kill anything.
I'm sorry you have a lack of motivation for building in your faction. I think the lack of motivation and the demoralizing effect of having things nerfed has clouded your ability to see new and better solutions to your faction/gaming challenges. The best thing to do is go play in another faction. Get a different perspective and have fun with something new.
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Re: How to compare builds
crazy to move past the "are we good builders" questions id say that out of 15 surely we'd have accidentally created a good one. and if a class is only overpowered in the hands a great builder then its not overpowered. and for 10RDD it takes a great builder and a great player and then,... its notable. Just notable. That being Trusek's Cereal Killer. That was a great RDD. But seriously, that's a year old. Wakefield was a duplicate. And we have better bards and better disarmers. That being why you don't see Serial any more. Bakura, Exile, Harrowed, and my own Tensor's builds were never really notable except for the being amusing.
The point being it takes a year of history and you've mentioned 1. I wouldn't say that's a powerhouse.
- glow -
The point being it takes a year of history and you've mentioned 1. I wouldn't say that's a powerhouse.
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