Change to shifters (all shapes not just shifters)

[Fezz]

Seriously did not read threw your entire post eldar but wild elf is +2 dex and wis for a start, and cant be planar turned other than that to be honest reading all your recent cry baby posts has forced me to actually post something for the 1st time in a long time.

You make me sick, all your arguments especially of late are basically - u gimped tc now u need to gimp Ao/rk. See your war domain debate for 1 example, as well as the 4 pages of dribble were reading through in this thread. Your complaining about tc cleric domains and what is your argument ? well u can make a ln n cn dwarf war domain cleric, are u {censored by me} serious? grow up its not about letting you make every darn thing u want in your beloved TC the ppl that make these calls know what there talking about and what there doing and when they make a mistake they change it. Guess what TC has NEVER had war domain not from the begining - never been changed, tell ya something ?

im so sorry but if any kind of shifting/polymorphing wtf ever build got gimped the bigest it was rdd dragons and it happened along time ago when they gimped the dex on them and guess what, this change hits them again. Do you see the AO/RK ppl u hate so much on here complaining 5 minutes after linux posts the change to the stupid boots ?

In the 5 years i spent here before i got banned, it was ppl like this that made me absolutely sick someone once said the squeeky wheel gets the grease in a post a while ago, for god sake i really hope it don't happen again (and in 5 years its happened a lot) but elda is squeekin badly - now she's even saying how bout droping an ecl 3 yes 3 races ac bonus from 4 to 2 ? wtf instead how bout this boost smurf gnomes by making there's dodge not deflection ?
I leave it to my kids that are playing now and brought this crap to my attention, laterz (Someone grease elda, leave tc as it is) it aint cause of your domains you cant compete its cause of you !

[mining]

Seriously did not read threw your entire post eldar but wild elf is +2 dex and wis for a start, and cant be planar turned other than that to be honest reading all your recent cry baby posts has forced me to actually post something for the 1st time in a long time.

You make me sick, all your arguments especially of late are basically - u gimped tc now u need to gimp Ao/rk. See your war domain debate for 1 example, as well as the 4 pages of dribble were reading through in this thread. Your complaining about tc cleric domains and what is your argument ? well u can make a ln n cn dwarf war domain cleric, are u {censored by me} serious? grow up its not about letting you make every darn thing u want in your beloved TC the ppl that make these calls know what there talking about and what there doing and when they make a mistake they change it. Guess what TC has NEVER had war domain not from the begining - never been changed, tell ya something ?

im so sorry but if any kind of shifting/polymorphing wtf ever build got gimped the bigest it was rdd dragons and it happened along time ago when they gimped the dex on them and guess what, this change hits them again. Do you see the AO/RK ppl u hate so much on here complaining 5 minutes after linux posts the change to the stupid boots ?

In the 5 years i spent here before i got banned, it was ppl like this that made me absolutely sick someone once said the squeeky wheel gets the grease in a post a while ago, for god sake i really hope it don't happen again (and in 5 years its happened a lot) but elda is squeekin badly - now she's even saying how bout droping an ecl 3 yes 3 races ac bonus from 4 to 2 ? wtf instead how bout this boost smurf gnomes by making there's dodge not deflection ?
I leave it to my kids that are playing now and brought this crap to my attention, laterz (Someone grease elda, leave tc as it is) it aint cause of your domains you cant compete its cause of you !

RDDs are still the most powerful dragons on the server, tyvm.

No, we don't see AORK complaining about the change because they can still make 78+ AC dragons, and 80+ AC elementals.
We don't see SLMA complaining about the change because its 99% beneficial to them.


wild elf is +2 dex and wis for a start
That is true, but thats - skills, so you essentially don't make a gain, by Elda's arguement. Also, -4 AC compared to gith, again, in line with Elda's points.

Elda's arguement for war domain stems, like many of her arguments, from RP roots.

[Mixtli]

Doc, mining - change has little to do with numbers, so no point in posting alternative builds to prove a point. This discussion now has 2-3 pages more than it should have. All is good, we got other things to build

[Eldaquen]

Thank you for responding Fezz.

Wish you would have taken the time to read my post. I have not said anything against the change to dodge from boots on shapes other than to state it happened. Thread started just indicating there was a change. Then later noticed there were comments how dragons are comparable to fighters, and should be lessor than. The whole dragon thing came about because an AO player asked for the old RDD dex back, because of the change to boots. Just wanted to point out that RDD was less hurt by the change than other dragons, and extended to include belief that RDD is still good and able to reach over 70 AC still.

I guess to answer your question regarding an AO player is yes. Look on the second page of this thread. (edited referenced wrong page).

Dragon discussion is again comparing RDD to other dragons. In my opinion RDD was less affected by the change than the others and RDD is stronger even though others don't share my opinion.

Splitting hairs about 71 AC druid dragon had nothing to do with the recent change and my desire to show that a druid/dragon built for blinding speed and 71 AC is going to be so lacking in other areas that it will not be a viable build. Pardon if a one word ressponse of "Wrong" predicated a lengthy response to show my point and opinion.

As far as war domain goes, that has nothing to do with the change to shapes. Tep stated neutrality means not war like therefore no war domain. I merely took his argument one step farther in hopes he would realize that being neutral is not a reason to exclude war domain after all. His response was frustrating in that it only went so far, I felt if he truely believes that then why isn't he applied across the realm. I don't really want Aork or NC, by the way I included NC in that, to be changed. I would want the dev's to look at the domains from a balance persepective and not an arbitrary RP reason that has no bearing on a meta gaming pvp realm. Such a drastic change would require a wipe, do you really think I want a wipe? Answer is NO!! I was merely trying to get him to think beyond the prevailing 1960's hippy attitude that people apply to TC.

Are there any other factions that it is capable of creating a LN, TN, or CN war domain cleric. No just AO, RK and NC. SL used to be able to but no longer because they were changed to evil only. If SL was the way it was when NS4 was created I would have included it. For that matter just because something has been does not mean it has to stay the same. Othewise why is anything ever changed. Why was SL changed to evil only if things should stay as they are. I am sure there are players in SL would like to have their old alignments back and avoid smite evil.

Your right someone can use Wild Elf for +2 dex and +2 wis, of course they also get -2 int. Since elf they also lose the +1 per lvl skill point that human and human subrace receive. So a wild elf druid blinding speed dragon would have 2 skill points per level. If you truely think 71 AC is worth using 2 +2 tomes and have only 80 skill points for the build for disc, tumble, conc, etc, and have poor fort and relfex saves, go ahead. I don't recommended it. 71 ac and no saves still results in a dead toon.

If you want a druid dragon or shifter dragon with blinding speed, I stand by my claim that it will need +4 tomes, if you want skill points and available feats for ab, stunning fist, ie, and saves.

[Rufio]

Doc, mining - change has little to do with numbers, so no point in posting alternative builds to prove a point. This discussion now has 2-3 pages more than it should have. All is good, we got other things to build

I wouldn't say I am arguing about numbers. Numbers aren't everything, I am arguing the intangible aspects (or lack there of) for shifters that is exposed by their now average numbers. I don't have a problem with having an average ab and ac, but I would like to see more things that matter besides ab and ac, and it is small things really, I don't think shifters need uber abilities, like the drider bolt is too powerful for one, I want shifters to be fun to play again, something that can keep opponents on their toes and can shift to handle different combat situations. Shifters are piss poor against casters and ranges attackers. Where are the forms with ranged weapons? where are the forms that can cast more than just ice storm? where are the forms that can buff or counter other spells and special abilities? they don't exist, they are all the same thing. Without epic shapes, if you have seen one form, you have seen all the others, and even epic shapes are hardly any different. They have a few intersting abilites, but unless you are a rak, they just go back to the same old thing, melee melee melee.

hell, give shifters really crappy abs and acs and with fun specials I'll be happy.

/rant

[Tru3Fals3]

Thank you for responding Fezz.

Wish you would have taken the time to read my post. I have not said anything against the change to dodge from boots on shapes other than to state it happened. Thread started just indicating there was a change. Then later noticed there were comments how dragons are comparable to fighters, and should be lessor than. The whole dragon thing came about because an AO player asked for the old RDD dex back, because of the change to boots. Just wanted to point out that RDD was less hurt by the change than other dragons, and extended to include belief that RDD is still good and able to reach over 70 AC still.

I guess to answer your question regarding an AO player is yes. Look on the second page of this thread. (edited referenced wrong page).

Dragon discussion is again comparing RDD to other dragons. In my opinion RDD was less affected by the change than the others and RDD is stronger even though others don't share my opinion.

Splitting hairs about 71 AC druid dragon had nothing to do with the recent change and my desire to show that a druid/dragon built for blinding speed and 71 AC is going to be so lacking in other areas that it will not be a viable build. Pardon if a one word ressponse of "Wrong" predicated a lengthy response to show my point and opinion.

As far as war domain goes, that has nothing to do with the change to shapes. Tep stated neutrality means not war like therefore no war domain. I merely took his argument one step farther in hopes he would realize that being neutral is not a reason to exclude war domain after all. His response was frustrating in that it only went so far, I felt if he truely believes that then why isn't he applied across the realm. I don't really want Aork or NC, by the way I included NC in that, to be changed. I would want the dev's to look at the domains from a balance persepective and not an arbitrary RP reason that has no bearing on a meta gaming pvp realm. Such a drastic change would require a wipe, do you really think I want a wipe? Answer is NO!!

Your right someone can use Wild Elf for +2 dex and +2 wis, of course they also get -2 int. Since elf they also lose the +1 per lvl skill point that human and human subrace receive. So a wild elf druid blinding speed dragon would have 2 skill points per level. If you truely think 71 AC is worth using 2 +2 tomes and have only 80 skill points for the build for disc, tumble, conc, etc, and have poor fort and relfex saves, go ahead. I don't recommended it. 71 ac and no saves still results in a dead toon.

If you want a druid dragon or shifter dragon with blinding speed, I stand by my claim that it will need +4 tomes, if you want skill points and available feats for ab, stunning fist, ie, and saves.

well how did i do mine then elda ? cause all it took was a +2wis and +2dex to get stun fist, blinding speed, epic disc, hellball, ruin and auto quicken 3, awesome ab, saves are great, death spells not even close to mattering not to mention every skill i needed, can be done with several races effectively too. its an insane beast, fun as hell to play and about where it should be on the power scale if not still overpowered imho, not only that, but when you build the same thing in tc, its even better! does 2d8 extra elemental damage from your stackable (cough cough) job item...

i dont know how your doing stats/feats/skills or whatever, or why your worried about how powerfull your druid DRAGON is out of shape, maybe you should just rethink how you make and play them, i dont think its anything to do with the class itself.

anyways... keep whining bout druid dragons, maybe you'll convince the devs to make mine even better for me!!

and mining, read the whole sentence before you quote me kid.

someone lock this pretty pls, whinefest is going nowhere.....

[Tsavong]

Do you see the AO/RK ppl u hate so much on here complaining 5 minutes after linux posts the change to the stupid boots ?

May be you should pay more attaches to the game you say you don't play before you make a statement like that, some AO and RK people complain a lot I still see some about the EMA change which happened best part of a year ago and they seem to complain a lot when someone else makes a suggestion about his or her faction.

We don't see SLMA complaining about the change because its 99% beneficial to them.

You don't see SLMA complaining because first there is no SLMA there is MA and SL we are two different factions.

Second we don't have druids or shifters so it doesn't really effect us in any way as we could kill your shifters before and we have little interest in how they work.

Third I fail to see how it is any % beneficial to us as some people who play SL and MA have made shifters so there builds lost the extra use from there boots I don't quite know why shifters need to use boots twice most of us make use with one pair at a time.

[frogofpeace]

I don't quite know why shifters need to use boots twice most of us make use with one pair at a time.

Ah, but science clearly reveals that some shifters have four feet.

[Ogami]

ROFL

[Midterm]

It is clear to me then that double dodge AC should apply to anything with 4 feet. Think of the poor badger builds!

[Shadowalker]

Just a thought, what if changing forms could be acomplished in a single round? 1/2 round to shift or deshift or an attack action for same.

[Tsavong]

I don't quite know why shifters need to use boots twice most of us make use with one pair at a time.

Ah, but science clearly reveals that some shifters have four feet.

God they must be ugly.

[Alkapwn]

I'm with Zerg on this point. I have a couple shifters and they are really overthetop. 115+disc,83/93ac with 62ab selfbuffed 800+hps, blinding speed, DR Epic energyresists galore pretty decent with spot on top of that.. No "regular" toon gets all those stats together. Shifters are versatile and pretty fun losing 5 ac on them really isnt a big deal. I've heard from actual TC players that the ac was out of control.
But there is always at least one screamer in every nusery....

[Bargeld]

Elda, in your most recent posts(s) about the skills needed for the builds... The rest of us suffer from this with many builds we attempt. Not every build can have everything. Which leads to my next point... Most of my meleer's don't have concentration, I don't have enough skill points for it. Does getting taunted suck? Yes. Does it happen ALL the time? No. It happens maybe 10% of the time, if even that. You get taunted and then it wears off if you survive. Your builds don't REQUIRE concentration. It's already been beat to death that shifters can't cast in combat, so you don't really need it as a caster. The other reasons for it are just gravy on your taters.

The other stuff you touch on, the unshifted HP and disc etc. Suck it up. Make a 35/5 mage/SD sometime and see what AC, HP, disc, conc, tumble, hide, ms, spot you get. 320 hp unbuffed with a book, 46 AC, 0 disc, 53 conc + gear, 95/88 hide/ms with gear, 105 spot unfocused. And you have to run around like that without any shapes to fall back on through all your battles. You don't even use a staff half the time cuz even a monk will disarm you. You just can't have everything.

[Carejo]

There's a lot of anger and hostility in this thread. It's bumming my chi. Everyone was more content and happy when I played. Coincidence? I think not.