Your Armor discussion

[Daltian]

Also, highest ac toons, which seam to be the biggest problem, are usually monks and they don't relly on dr anyway since they can use only robes and cant change shields to match the enemy.

You either don't play much, don't know what you're talking about, or are choosing not to speak the truth because of the faction you choose to play.

The "highest ac toons" aren't monks. Ever. The highest AC toons are shifters, and PMs. PMs just recently took a step in the right direction, the change to only +1 AC at levels where they would gain +2 was much needed and well overdue. Shifters though, Shifters are still flawed. Horribly. Your 80+ AC shapes which you don't have to build for at all would be, as I and others already mentioned, only strengthened by these proposed changes, when the reality is that they still need to be nerfed just a little bit more. Not much, just a little more tweaking to bring their armor class more in line with other builds. PMs and Shifters still reign supreme on the AC totem pole. PMs are where they should be right now, unlimited bugged-with-metamagic ice storm spamming 80+ AC Rakshasas and other forms need to be taken down a few notches. Not strengthened.

Daltian, your pure fighter with somehow dreadful AB can now hit a PM, try fighting a Shifter, and then come back and whine about monks. They're not the problem.

That's why I think this whole conversation is ultimately worthless. It's easier to balance the very few remaining OP things than to reinvent the wheel with new armor schemes.

Are you drunk or something? My pure fighter with dreadful ab of 74(also no books used), how much ab should I have? Shifters don't have ac that you mention, no way near it while my monk has 88 ac and hasn't used +4 books, and didn't take expertise or imp expertise because I am so hard to hit with 88 ac + epic dodge and undeispellable concealment I decided I don't need it.

Raskasha forms have 70 ac if played by gith with best gear available. Thats 66 ac for non gith. You find that to be super high ac? Please inform yourself before lying. My raskasha did have over 80 ac actually, that was before wipe and before shifter nerf. You still remember the beating so much that you can't shake it off?

Also, can you please tell me when is the last time a shifter walked in your cradle room and you had problem killing him? Only 2 of them raid that I know of. Zersei with Dragon Shape shifter that is definitely not monster ac build and Doc Ruffio with kobold that has good ac (mid 70's) but he can be killed in lots of ways.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

i just don't think this is broken. str characters aren't broken. dex characters aren't broken. what's broken?

again i only think it is broken if you are intent on making this a perfect world. but why does it need to be? there may be minor flaws in the way things are but we know what they are and we adapt. these changes are fundamental to everything we've learned. everything we've built around. if the staff wants to encourage the use of medium armours (i like zerg's sp) then just make them better. but it will benefits shifters most.

one of the hardest things on this server is adapting to the change. why would we volunteer for one when its not broken? the only thing effected by this will be the "normal/generic" builds which are already beatable. the uber AC builds won't be suddenly touchable.

the only problem with str builds is that they cannot haste. if only haste pots were a viable answer or something. they only way to tolerate a str is by getting hasted from a caster. Aetheria is a big place. being str based can be a determent to your effectiveness.

so dex builds are a better because, ac/ab and haste. str builds with haste are pretty playable.

- glow -

[Daltian]

i just don't think this is broken. str characters aren't broken. dex characters aren't broken. what's broken?

again i only think it is broken if you are intent on making this a perfect world. but why does it need to be? there may be minor flaws in the way things are but we know what they are and we adapt. these changes are fundamental to everything we've learned. everything we've built around. if the staff wants to encourage the use of medium armours (i like zerg's sp) then just make them better. but it will benefits shifters most.

one of the hardest things on this server is adapting to the change. why would we volunteer for one when its not broken? the only thing effected by this will be the "normal/generic" builds which are already beatable. the uber AC builds won't be suddenly touchable.

the only problem with str builds is that they cannot haste. if only haste pots were a viable answer or something. they only way to tolerate a str is by getting hasted from a caster. Aetheria is a big place. being str based can be a determent to your effectiveness.

so dex builds are a better because, ac/ab and haste. str builds with haste are pretty playable.

- glow -

Well said

[Rufio]

my rak has 73 ac and he is a wild elf

Actually, it is interesting, the way things are balanced, almost all shifters can get ac's in the 70s, but it is very very difficult to get any higher than that, though there is balance there. It is very very difficult to get good ab numbers on shifters, i built sebastian to have the highest ab possible on a shifter build self-buffed, and he hits 65 ab and no more without a bard or cleric, and that is including an aid spell that only lasts 2 turns. I had to make sacrifices to get that high, most shifter builds are going to linger around the high 50's or just touch 60 ab, so they have to make up for it with a decent ac (decent means 70's, not 80+), not to mention that they can't do anything while shifted except drink potions and use whatever ability they have, if they even have any. (sebastian can cast blood frenzy. a real game breaker there)

I completely agree with glow that the weakness of str builds is haste. If they can't cast it, or have no other means of increasing speed, they can be difficult to play. If you have a means of getting haste, then suddenly they aren't so bad. Pure fighters are a perfect example, they can essentialy haste themselves, meaning enemies can't run away when things look bad, and with the ab and damage a pure fighter has, they don't really need a stellar ac to go toe to toe with high ac builds.

It is exactly the same reason why no one builds druid casters. The spell selection is decent enough, but no haste makes them mostly unplayable

[neil420]

dont fix whats not broken the armor and robes have been fine all these years.AO jobs need fixed everone would like some new zones . there's lots o stuff all that work could go to that will not brake 3/4 o the builds on the sever

[rocketkai]

It is very very difficult to get good ab numbers on shifters, i built sebastian to have the highest ab possible on a shifter build self-buffed, and he hits 65 ab and no more without a bard or cleric, and that is including an aid spell that only lasts 2 turns.

Actually, the highest ab possible on a shifter self-buffed would be the one mixed with clr lvls.
for example, 17clr/6dru/17shifter (kobold shape) can reach 70 ab selfbuffed (including 4 ab from weapon focus and 1 ab from size); 14clr/6dru/20shifter (diretiger) can reach 72 ab. However those two builds couldn't get more ab from bard, since their ab already caps at 20.

[Daltian]

It is very very difficult to get good ab numbers on shifters, i built sebastian to have the highest ab possible on a shifter build self-buffed, and he hits 65 ab and no more without a bard or cleric, and that is including an aid spell that only lasts 2 turns.

Actually, the highest ab possible on a shifter self-buffed would be the one mixed with clr lvls.
for example, 17clr/6dru/17shifter (kobold shape) can reach 70 ab selfbuffed (including 4 ab from weapon focus and 1 ab from size); 14clr/6dru/20shifter (diretiger) can reach 72 ab. However those two builds couldn't get more ab from bard, since their ab already caps at 20.

Divine power and favor would give a lot of that ab, lasting only 2 turns extended. With shifter being to vulnerable unshifted, I don't see it working well. But it is highest ab

[rocketkai]

I totally agree. The clr/dru/shifter combo may not be as good as several others (e.g., rog/dru/shiter, ftr/dru/shifter, or even barb or ranger/dru/shifter), however it can achieve the highest self-buffed ab.
BTW, there's a typo in my post. The two builds should be 15clr/8dru/17shifter or 12clr/8dru/20shifter. Whatever, they are not that good shifter builds

It is very very difficult to get good ab numbers on shifters, i built sebastian to have the highest ab possible on a shifter build self-buffed, and he hits 65 ab and no more without a bard or cleric, and that is including an aid spell that only lasts 2 turns.

Actually, the highest ab possible on a shifter self-buffed would be the one mixed with clr lvls.
for example, 17clr/6dru/17shifter (kobold shape) can reach 70 ab selfbuffed (including 4 ab from weapon focus and 1 ab from size); 14clr/6dru/20shifter (diretiger) can reach 72 ab. However those two builds couldn't get more ab from bard, since their ab already caps at 20.

Divine power and favor would give a lot of that ab, lasting only 2 turns extended. With shifter being to vulnerable unshifted, I don't see it working well. But it is highest ab

[Alkapwn]

I'll be looking foward to dispeling you to mediocrity!

[Korr]

I played me some shifters for a while... my dire tiger (barbarian/druid/shifter) had I think like 72-75 AB, his AC was horrible but the damage he dealt made up for it (Was fun going toe-to-toe vs pre-nerf 30 RDDs (won some lost some, but I could dance)). My 30 RDD was a cleric/bard/rdd, the divine power/favor dont last long enough IMO to say it is "a part of the build" you get 10 rounds then have to deshift to recast. The divine might was the key there... extra damage.

As far as whoever said raks have broken infinite metamagiced spells... youre wrong. My rak build was designed to test whether empowering/maximizing/extended shifter spells would work... it doesnt. I asked Lokey about that he said "good, it shouldnt work". Although the automatic spells still work (ie raks icestorms can be autoquickened).

Tep said that weapons are a whole other discussion/problem. But I think they are one in the same, or atleast closely linked. Why not take the finessable weapons and lower the damage on them? Str toons will hit and dish out damage, dex toons will dodge and hit... but not do much damage. It seems that monks are being called out for the "ac out of whack" because they get all the lovely dex PLUS wisdom, but lets not forget you need 26 wisdom to have the AC a +5 tower shield gives... and you still need to match dex with the other dexers. Monks lose out on DR naturally because of the no shields, isnt that balance enough? If its not watch how quick a scythe or halberd (hell even the skara sickle) drops a monk when going toe to toe.

Lets see if we can consider weapon damage changes to fix armor problems (for those saying DR is the problem).

Currently lets say everyone runs at 100% attack and defense capacity.
If you reduce the damage that finesse weapons do to 1/2 then you have : (Yes I am aware there are some str builds that use finessable weapons...)
STR - Off(100%) / Def (150%)
DEX - Off(50%) / Def (100%)
So even this drastic change puts the comparison to such that a Dexer would have a REALLY hard time hurting that str based toon. Shouldnt that be how it goes anyway? You have the endurance and grace to dance around and slash and pick at the big slow oaf untill either he nails you a couple times you get a few real good shots in (we call those crits in NWN). Now there of course lies a problem within this too. Darkfire, Jobs (sry AO), bard song, cleric buffs, divine might, subrace abilities all have some options for raising the damage of these dex characters... can they raise the damage enough/do different enough damage types to negate this change? Possibly, only time could tell...

[Rufio]

that is 72-75 ab with cleric & bard buffs, because that would be impossible self buffed. I don't have the luxury of having bards and clerics around all the time.

In fact, the highest bab you could have with a barbarian dire tiger is 27 if you want to max you discipline by taking a barbarian level in epic levels. then your max ab would be +22 str mod +4 weapon foc, ewf and prowess, +1 blinding, +8 weapon = 62, and i believe you get -1 for being large, so maxed self buffed is 61. you can get 2 more for being outside, which i didn't count in my 65.

[Korr]

that is 72-75 ab with cleric & bard buffs, because that would be impossible self buffed.

Maxed AB yes... self-buffed made not much difference as I was always dual logging. Even without though his AB was plenty high enough to take on about anyone.

[Rufio]

It is very very difficult to get good ab numbers on shifters, i built sebastian to have the highest ab possible on a shifter build self-buffed, and he hits 65 ab and no more without a bard or cleric, and that is including an aid spell that only lasts 2 turns.

Actually, the highest ab possible on a shifter self-buffed would be the one mixed with clr lvls.
for example, 17clr/6dru/17shifter (kobold shape) can reach 70 ab selfbuffed (including 4 ab from weapon focus and 1 ab from size); 14clr/6dru/20shifter (diretiger) can reach 72 ab. However those two builds couldn't get more ab from bard, since their ab already caps at 20.

true, you got me there, though I didn't include the possible +2 for being outside, since it isn't always there. short duration spells aren't the best for shifters, After 2 turns your ab would drop to 4 below mine. sebastian's ab with a bard and cleric would hit 74 outside (i think?) because it doesn't have the same cap troubles.

oh man, who de-railed this topic? (ok, I think it was me.)

[Korr]

Personally I think shifters should be dealt with on a seperate basis because of the structure of the class... theyre design is by nature as "able to do anything". They can cast and fight and defend they are the all arounders.

Quick examples of such: (Dont even have to touch the awesome epic feat shapes either)
Tiger/Kobold - Great strength with double damage type weapons, making for great destroyers.
Drow/Drider - Good AC and extra abilities. HiPS on the drow and an amazing web bolt on the drider.
Lizardman whipmaster - Con based form with a whip in his hands... so throw the right feats at it and youre talking about having a 1100-1200 HP toon with high AB/AC to match it.
Basilisk - A 5th level shifter has this form. Its strength is hidden and more taxing than most of the other forms. It uses a longsword so it MUST be str based or have no AB. On the bright side its a con form so you can dump that and still have good hps. With the right weapons in its hand this is the only thing (outside of Kims arrows) that can do all three damage types on 1 weapon, yes this means because of 1.69 you MUST have all 3 DR/DI to defend against this nasty little guy.

[Rufio]

*goes to investigate basilisk form*

I'm confused by this one.