General balancing problems
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DrakhanValane
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Let's see... 50% imm and 10 resist. So all you need to get past a fighter's best defence is 20 damage. Greataxe: 1d12+1d10 slash... dang you can hurt them now! +str bonus... hmm you can hurt them more. A crit on top of that? Ouchies. And if you change to a different weapon the best they can have is 25% imm 10 resist. hmm, that's even easier to get past.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
50% immun works on crit too, and is ALWAYS half damage away. It's way too much if you put in a resistance too.
And to get past it with my weapon i must roll high result with all damage dice.
Of course, i can get past 50% immunity and 10 slash resist with a Balkar's might, but how damage can i do? Let's see....
1d10 base slash +2d6 +1d6 cold +3 physical +10 from str bonus (+7 x 1,5 due to 2h bonus). So, i can do from 16 physical +1 cold base to 35 physical + 6 cold max.
First case: 50% of 16 is 8, then the other 8 are resisted. Hit for 1 cold.
Second case: 50% of 35 is 17. Then 10 damage are resisted. Hit for 8 (OMG! 8 damage! WOAH!) phys damage +6 cold. Total 14 damage.
A cleric Darkfire, without any other buff, do more fire damage than that. And is 100% sure damage.
Ok now, crits. Halberd has x3 crits, so 3d10 +6d6 slash +3d6 cold +9 physical +30 bonus from str (yes, STR damage bonus get multiplied too in nwn it seems). Min damage is 48 physical +3 cold. Max is 105 +18 cold.
First case: 50% of 48 is 24. Then other 10 damage are resisted. Total damage is 14 physical + 3 cold.
Second case: 50% of 105 is 52 (52!!! OMG 52 damage that go away for immunity!). Then 10 damage resisted. Total damage is 43 physical +18 cold. Nice, 61 damage. This is the damage of the best level 16 halberd around, with 24 str. And halberds have x3 crits.
Then, cold is easy resisted by most of planar things. And this are the MAX damage you can get, that means that all the damage you will probably get are between this 2.
Max crit damage is still decent with a x3 crit weapon, is true, but not crit damage is NOTHING. Most of time you will just see endless 0 over the target head if it's cold resistant, or some various numbers from 1 to 6 if it isn't.
So, as you see, what you need to get past a fighter's (or CLERIC) best defence isn't exactly 20 damage. 62 damage aren't exactly the same.
And what if you are fighting a cleric with stoneskin on? Then your normal damage is capped on 0! how funny right?
And this is all that a fighter (a fighter, you know the big guy meant to take things and bash them with huge weapons wile the casters prepare their slow devastating spells to wipe things out? Well, that fighter, that is supposed to hurt things bad wile in melee) can get with the immunities. Wonder at what level i can get 100% immunity to slash, pierce, bludge, cold, fire, death, electricity, divine, negative, holy, magic, acid, sonic.
Level 30 maybe?
And to get past it with my weapon i must roll high result with all damage dice.
Of course, i can get past 50% immunity and 10 slash resist with a Balkar's might, but how damage can i do? Let's see....
1d10 base slash +2d6 +1d6 cold +3 physical +10 from str bonus (+7 x 1,5 due to 2h bonus). So, i can do from 16 physical +1 cold base to 35 physical + 6 cold max.
First case: 50% of 16 is 8, then the other 8 are resisted. Hit for 1 cold.
Second case: 50% of 35 is 17. Then 10 damage are resisted. Hit for 8 (OMG! 8 damage! WOAH!) phys damage +6 cold. Total 14 damage.
A cleric Darkfire, without any other buff, do more fire damage than that. And is 100% sure damage.
Ok now, crits. Halberd has x3 crits, so 3d10 +6d6 slash +3d6 cold +9 physical +30 bonus from str (yes, STR damage bonus get multiplied too in nwn it seems). Min damage is 48 physical +3 cold. Max is 105 +18 cold.
First case: 50% of 48 is 24. Then other 10 damage are resisted. Total damage is 14 physical + 3 cold.
Second case: 50% of 105 is 52 (52!!! OMG 52 damage that go away for immunity!). Then 10 damage resisted. Total damage is 43 physical +18 cold. Nice, 61 damage. This is the damage of the best level 16 halberd around, with 24 str. And halberds have x3 crits.
Then, cold is easy resisted by most of planar things. And this are the MAX damage you can get, that means that all the damage you will probably get are between this 2.
Max crit damage is still decent with a x3 crit weapon, is true, but not crit damage is NOTHING. Most of time you will just see endless 0 over the target head if it's cold resistant, or some various numbers from 1 to 6 if it isn't.
So, as you see, what you need to get past a fighter's (or CLERIC) best defence isn't exactly 20 damage. 62 damage aren't exactly the same.
And what if you are fighting a cleric with stoneskin on? Then your normal damage is capped on 0! how funny right?
And this is all that a fighter (a fighter, you know the big guy meant to take things and bash them with huge weapons wile the casters prepare their slow devastating spells to wipe things out? Well, that fighter, that is supposed to hurt things bad wile in melee) can get with the immunities. Wonder at what level i can get 100% immunity to slash, pierce, bludge, cold, fire, death, electricity, divine, negative, holy, magic, acid, sonic.
Level 30 maybe?
Aran the Red, fighter of Tempus
Elite disciple of Ancient Ones
A Paladin's heart in a Bard soul
Elite disciple of Ancient Ones
A Paladin's heart in a Bard soul
Elairn (Dart) wrote:i haven't read the whole topic because i don't have enough time (Real Life and Real Sleep drain my time). if you believe that casters are stronger than fighters, read the first post on this topic.
http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=890
there are ways to kill casters (nerfed or not), there are ways to kill fighters, there are ways to kill anything. just find the way.
Of course there are always ways. And there will always be. I just wonder, why a fighter must be pro experienced pvper exploiter player to kill a caster wile a caster can be a perfect noob and still kill a fighter with no problem?
Oh, and anyway isn't true that there are always ways to kill casters, a powergamer sorc built in a certain way just can't be killed
Aran the Red, fighter of Tempus
Elite disciple of Ancient Ones
A Paladin's heart in a Bard soul
Elite disciple of Ancient Ones
A Paladin's heart in a Bard soul
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Elairn (Dart)
- Noob
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- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:35 pm
i don't think a noob can build a good caster. casters aren't easy to make.
indeed you need an expert player to make an invincible sorc (anyway not invincible but really hard to beat) and to use it in deadly way. anyone can do stupid mistakes with a god-character
Oh, and anyway isn't true that there are always ways to kill casters, a powergamer sorc built in a certain way just can't be killed
indeed you need an expert player to make an invincible sorc (anyway not invincible but really hard to beat) and to use it in deadly way. anyone can do stupid mistakes with a god-character
Dart ... (GH) on NS4
Missing NS3 Central Community too bad.
Missing NS3 Central Community too bad.
Here is the problem....DKcobra said level with a party...thats perfectly valid...unfortunately that means character progression for non casters is slower because the tank HAS to lvl with someone else (thus loosing total experience) while the caster can use summons to help them lvl. The best way to solve this? Up the synergey tactics bonus to encourage team play.
Next..Lack of efficient unique tank weapons. It would make sense that fighters have better than the average weapons that constantly be bought in stores. Fighters should have more ways to access better weapons (at lvl 13 there area a couple, like Giant Mountain amazons, from what I know) than average weapons.
Also There is a serious problem with assuming this game will be perfectly balanced....however, i don't think anyone has said they want the game to be perfectly balanced because it makes the game lame. What people do what is inherent advanatages to choosing one class over another. If I want to play a fighter, i want to konw that my fighter will have better access to weapons, if I want to play an Arcane Archer, I should have better than average arrows available to me (and not at lvl 16, higher arrows at lvl 16 is WAY too long to wait for good items and it dissuades characters from playing). The best way to solve this? Better than average store sold item damage. How could this be achieved? Crafting skills done through some tank classes, for certain weapons, would yield better than average crafted weapons. IE a craftsman AA would make 1d12 arrows (useable at lvl 13) which is better than average, and maybe have some magic on them, whereas a regular char making arrows would still only make 1d10 (or 1d8 i don't remember, its been a while with my crafting) arrows.
Another suggestion....give fighters acces to dispel items through boss fights. If you have to kill a hard boss for an item that does dispell once a day, suddenly tanks have a good item that is useful against casters AND it helps level out the PvP field. Making it only dropped by hard bosses, just adds incentive to get better.
And....quite assuming this is ns3 style requests...its not...in ns3 there were no such things as 1d12 arrows at lvl 13....it was 10d6 (somtimes 20d6) arrows at lvl 1.....THe jump in logic is barely there.
So here is the ways to solve these problems
1. Most importantly increase synergy tactics bonuses to stimulate team play
2. Unique tank weapons (and casters should get unique caster weapons too) that have an edge over store bought stuff. Unique items at all ILR lvls should be available beyond the store. However, tanks require weapons to be effective..thats their job, so items will inherently define their characters, thus making beter than averrage items a necessity for the tank.
3. This is labor intensive to devs, but make it so that fighters that weapon specialize in certain weapons can craft better than average crafted weapons in those specialized weapon focuses. (that may sound confusing but makes a little sense...if the fighter specializes in a katana (for example) he should be able to make a katana through crafting that is better than a standard crafted katana of the same lvl) This has a good tradeoff, makes sense, and gives new life to crafting. (this should apply to all classes not just fighters within reason).
4. Item spread needs to be changed....i don't know how yet though
This debate is good keep it coming
Next..Lack of efficient unique tank weapons. It would make sense that fighters have better than the average weapons that constantly be bought in stores. Fighters should have more ways to access better weapons (at lvl 13 there area a couple, like Giant Mountain amazons, from what I know) than average weapons.
Also There is a serious problem with assuming this game will be perfectly balanced....however, i don't think anyone has said they want the game to be perfectly balanced because it makes the game lame. What people do what is inherent advanatages to choosing one class over another. If I want to play a fighter, i want to konw that my fighter will have better access to weapons, if I want to play an Arcane Archer, I should have better than average arrows available to me (and not at lvl 16, higher arrows at lvl 16 is WAY too long to wait for good items and it dissuades characters from playing). The best way to solve this? Better than average store sold item damage. How could this be achieved? Crafting skills done through some tank classes, for certain weapons, would yield better than average crafted weapons. IE a craftsman AA would make 1d12 arrows (useable at lvl 13) which is better than average, and maybe have some magic on them, whereas a regular char making arrows would still only make 1d10 (or 1d8 i don't remember, its been a while with my crafting) arrows.
Another suggestion....give fighters acces to dispel items through boss fights. If you have to kill a hard boss for an item that does dispell once a day, suddenly tanks have a good item that is useful against casters AND it helps level out the PvP field. Making it only dropped by hard bosses, just adds incentive to get better.
And....quite assuming this is ns3 style requests...its not...in ns3 there were no such things as 1d12 arrows at lvl 13....it was 10d6 (somtimes 20d6) arrows at lvl 1.....THe jump in logic is barely there.
So here is the ways to solve these problems
1. Most importantly increase synergy tactics bonuses to stimulate team play
2. Unique tank weapons (and casters should get unique caster weapons too) that have an edge over store bought stuff. Unique items at all ILR lvls should be available beyond the store. However, tanks require weapons to be effective..thats their job, so items will inherently define their characters, thus making beter than averrage items a necessity for the tank.
3. This is labor intensive to devs, but make it so that fighters that weapon specialize in certain weapons can craft better than average crafted weapons in those specialized weapon focuses. (that may sound confusing but makes a little sense...if the fighter specializes in a katana (for example) he should be able to make a katana through crafting that is better than a standard crafted katana of the same lvl) This has a good tradeoff, makes sense, and gives new life to crafting. (this should apply to all classes not just fighters within reason).
4. Item spread needs to be changed....i don't know how yet though
This debate is good keep it coming
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.
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JesterOI
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How about no synergy bonuses for party xp, and just make solo and party xp the same?
I totally agree with enhanced weapons for tanks.
For a level 40 this is an example:
Item levels need to be condensed
Take the current items and switch the ILR's for current items to to 3, 6, 9... (from 5, 9, 13, ...)
And make new improved items for the levels (12, 15, 18, 21) above the current item spread
New items every 3 levels is A LOT more interesting than every 5 levels.
Kinda like when on a road trip it seems to take less time when you pay attention to the short term destinations rather than the single far away destination. (sorry if I lsot anyone here...)
I totally agree with enhanced weapons for tanks.
For a level 40 this is an example:
Item levels need to be condensed
Take the current items and switch the ILR's for current items to to 3, 6, 9... (from 5, 9, 13, ...)
And make new improved items for the levels (12, 15, 18, 21) above the current item spread
New items every 3 levels is A LOT more interesting than every 5 levels.
Kinda like when on a road trip it seems to take less time when you pay attention to the short term destinations rather than the single far away destination. (sorry if I lsot anyone here...)
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The Hasselhoff 4 3v3r!!! Metis n3v3r!!!
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JesterOI wrote:How about no synergy bonuses for party xp, and just make solo and party xp the same?
I totally agree with enhanced weapons for tanks.
For a level 40 this is an example:
Item levels need to be condensed
Take the current items and switch the ILR's for current items to to 3, 6, 9... (from 5, 9, 13, ...)
And make new improved items for the levels (12, 15, 18, 21) above the current item spread
New items every 3 levels is A LOT more interesting than every 5 levels.
Kinda like when on a road trip it seems to take less time when you pay attention to the short term destinations rather than the single far away destination. (sorry if I lsot anyone here...)
Problem is your sword can be used by a 39 cleric/ 1 fighter.
Cleric is still going to be a better tank then a 40th level fighter.
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DrakhanValane
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Who's Zues?
I thought I explained to you before why equal XP for solo or party is bad. Hello 50000 level 10s taking down Kutalch!
*coughZeuscough*
I thought I explained to you before why equal XP for solo or party is bad. Hello 50000 level 10s taking down Kutalch!
*coughZeuscough*
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
Hehehe yeah....i guess synergy bonuses shouldn't make you get more exp...but they still need to be increased to encourage team play.
The reason why the Zeus sword doesn't display pure fighter only is because that isn't an option in Aurora toolset, the dev's would have to manually make the code for that to work. Don't be too harsh on jester:D he is moving in the right direction.
The reason why the Zeus sword doesn't display pure fighter only is because that isn't an option in Aurora toolset, the dev's would have to manually make the code for that to work. Don't be too harsh on jester:D he is moving in the right direction.
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.
Ugh if that is a lvl 40 sword i'll do a monk! duh! at least give also +2d12 slashing
Anyway i think there should be unique weapons at various levels. Maybe dropped and craftable gear, not avaible in normal shops, for like level 9,13,16 etc fighters. And the weapons for pure classes should give great advantages. For example a sword that can be used by lvl 40 pure fighter, so straight 40 lvls of fighter, should be superior to any other weapon, but maybe a lvl 40 barbarian greataxe. After all i never saw anywere a straight lvl 40 fighter or barbarian
Same for sorcs or wiz, i think is impossible or nearly impossible that someone build a lvl 40 pure sorc or wiz, so they should have something REALLY powerfull for being pure. Like, dunno, a Mystra's Staff for them?
Or a level 40 Cleric with a mace that can summon a god avatar once/day? would be cool
This are just examples for straight pure items, but there must be items scattered around level intervals too, mainly for chars based upon physical damage like fighters, barbarians, arcane archers, rangers and paladins (even if maybe they should have slightly weaker weapons due to the fact that they have other qualities other than skill with weapons), monks, rogues, assassins and so on.
For example, regarding weapons, in my opinion there should be class/level restricted weapons stronger than others, like this:
Barbarian's weapon should be the strongest (after all the barbarians are supposed to be the best at doing melee damage), then fighters/wm/AA weapons (they base their existence on the mastering of art of war, for fighters, or the mastering of only one weapon, for WMs, or for the mastering of the bow for AA, so they are highly specialized classes), then paladins/rangers/DD/assassins (Paladins and Rangers devote their life to the arts of war, is true, but they focus on other arts as well, divine for paladins and nature for rangers, and the DD, even if they are a warrior class, are mainly a defensive bastion than an offensive one, and assassins, 'cause they are supposed to be more specialized on fighting and damage dealing than rogues), then rogues, shadowdancers and such.
Well suppose you got what i mean
Anyway i think there should be unique weapons at various levels. Maybe dropped and craftable gear, not avaible in normal shops, for like level 9,13,16 etc fighters. And the weapons for pure classes should give great advantages. For example a sword that can be used by lvl 40 pure fighter, so straight 40 lvls of fighter, should be superior to any other weapon, but maybe a lvl 40 barbarian greataxe. After all i never saw anywere a straight lvl 40 fighter or barbarian
Same for sorcs or wiz, i think is impossible or nearly impossible that someone build a lvl 40 pure sorc or wiz, so they should have something REALLY powerfull for being pure. Like, dunno, a Mystra's Staff for them?
Or a level 40 Cleric with a mace that can summon a god avatar once/day? would be cool
This are just examples for straight pure items, but there must be items scattered around level intervals too, mainly for chars based upon physical damage like fighters, barbarians, arcane archers, rangers and paladins (even if maybe they should have slightly weaker weapons due to the fact that they have other qualities other than skill with weapons), monks, rogues, assassins and so on.
For example, regarding weapons, in my opinion there should be class/level restricted weapons stronger than others, like this:
Barbarian's weapon should be the strongest (after all the barbarians are supposed to be the best at doing melee damage), then fighters/wm/AA weapons (they base their existence on the mastering of art of war, for fighters, or the mastering of only one weapon, for WMs, or for the mastering of the bow for AA, so they are highly specialized classes), then paladins/rangers/DD/assassins (Paladins and Rangers devote their life to the arts of war, is true, but they focus on other arts as well, divine for paladins and nature for rangers, and the DD, even if they are a warrior class, are mainly a defensive bastion than an offensive one, and assassins, 'cause they are supposed to be more specialized on fighting and damage dealing than rogues), then rogues, shadowdancers and such.
Well suppose you got what i mean
Aran the Red, fighter of Tempus
Elite disciple of Ancient Ones
A Paladin's heart in a Bard soul
Elite disciple of Ancient Ones
A Paladin's heart in a Bard soul
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JesterOI
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Man, at level 40 and using that sword your going to be able to do up 7 call lightning's / round (dual weilding while hasted), that's 70d6 lighting to EVERY monster within range. SO! What was that about adding +2d12 slashing? That doesn't add much, 14d12 (equivalent to 28d6) to a single creature as opposed to 70d6 to ALL creatures within range!!!
I think it's probably too uber for even lvl 40's for ns 4!
I think it's probably too uber for even lvl 40's for ns 4!
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Thats cool and it would be smooth, the only reason I wouldn't want it is because its a all your eggs in one basket item. Why? Because if the monsters are immune to lightning...your screwed
But for the most part, yes that is an awesome sword
So...what happened to this debate? What do the devs think about the synergy bonuses, and increased item spreads?
But for the most part, yes that is an awesome sword
So...what happened to this debate? What do the devs think about the synergy bonuses, and increased item spreads?
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.