RFC: Proposed Class Changes

Brennan068 · Post by **Brennan068** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:43 am

Just my opinion (of course) but, I agree with a minimum of 5 levels in any character class you choose to take. 10 is too much to force on anybody and will lead to forced pure classes. If you choose to multi into any class, you need to see it through to a certain point from a rp pov. From a pg pov, this would stop the cherry picking cheeze. The only thing that I can see to suggest is possibly considering making that 5 a 4 so as not to mess up anybody's bab progression. I agree with the idea though.

Shasz · Post by **Shasz** » Sun May 23, 2004 10:41 am

I'd say go with 4 consecutive, for any class, and consider letting more than one PrC per character. And of course, the tail-end preventative where you cannot take a new class after 36th.

5 is a bit restrictive on the med level BAB classes, and only limiting it to monk and paladin ignores a lot of other possibilites.

DM Clang · Post by **DM Clang** » Sun May 23, 2004 12:01 pm

The point I believe is that if you want to multiclass for the benifit of the other skills, you will suffer in some way . . . .

i.e. AB

Alexiagold · Post by **Alexiagold** » Sun May 23, 2004 12:18 pm

The irony of things as they stand right now, the one build Joran made mention of won't be affected in the slightest by requiring even 10 levels of monk, as 20 sorc/10 pally/ 10 monk still works and has great BAB if you take the pally/monk levels first. In fact it got me thinking of trying to do that build anyway, due to the huge benefits, once we can reach level 40. Sure you lose a few epic bonus feats, but you gain quite a bit from the additional monk and paladin levels. Further you can now melee quite well, to the point with the sorc buffs (tenser's anyone?) that High SR critters won't scare you, especially with True Strike, Divine Favor, etc.

And vs things like Drow or Giz, who have 50 SR at level 40, well Mord + Greater Spell breach + epic SR penetration = no big problem dealing with thier SR even at level 20 in sorc.

Brennan068 · Post by **Brennan068** » Sun May 23, 2004 12:31 pm

There is nothing wrong with that build from any perspective. The point, I believe is to take out the cherry pickers. It isn't about suffering, it is about playing the classes the way they were meant to be played instead of exploiting one-offs that are allowed under the game engine. Shadow Dancer (in PnP) takes a lot of effort to achieve and the Shadow Dancers don't allow just anybody in. So they aren't going to teach someone who is just interested in the hips and isn't devoted to the way. I know that these things are not required in the game and some prefer Diablo, but this game is at least based on Roleplaying.

Hieroneus Maxim · Post by **Hieroneus Maxim** » Sun May 23, 2004 1:48 pm

Requiring 10 levels in a class is too harsh. It is a huge limiting factor, and will mean that one can only take 2 classes pre-epic. If you want to limit multi-classing this much, play 2e. One of the ideas about 3e is the ease of multi-classing. I could see requiring 5 consecutive levels, and this seems like a reasonable way to handle front-loading of classes (pally, shadowdancer *cough*). I don't know if it is appropriate to limit all classes like this, or just pally, monk, all PrCs (even ones that aren't frontloaded, for RP reasons).

Brennan068 · Post by **Brennan068** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:25 pm

I think if you're going to limit one you must limit all to be fair.

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:52 pm

you guys are getting off topic.
/edit- oops only read pg 3.. forgot to read all of 4/

we know there is going to be a set lvl amount u have to take in X amount of classes.

what classes should have what lvl amounts req?

devlin-- a true power gamer, in my view, would view it as a challenge.. i mean, you know how to build uber character on severs w/o these rules, in fact.. teh builds are generally the same.... but here's a challenge where you are goin gto be worked and have to really try to have the most uber character.... it will call for variety and the ability to make the most of unique abilities where you can find them.

also... should the for certian multiclassing if the base class is X u have to take Y many lvls but if the base class is Q you will have to take R many lvls.
make sense? and should it really be implemneted or will it just make things more and too complicated as we are already going to make them?
again.. here's my suggestion on the classes-

paladin and monk- 10 lvls is too much, 5 would be fine, tho 9 shud be max. (leave it to them to be smart and take the 6th lvl...)
rogue- 6 is fair id' think.
bard/sorc/wiz- i think lvl 3 is good here, because, really, an AA shouldnt have to take 10 lvls to take the class... is it possible to let multiclass to AA after 3 lvls and rdd/pm only after 5?
shadowdancer- 5 lvls sounds fair enuff
cleric lvl 3... the animal domain isnt too oft, and some1 taking a wiz/sorc lvl w/ emp/max/quicken can do nearly the same thing w/ differnt spells.

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sun May 23, 2004 3:50 pm

DrakhanValane wrote:If you don't fix the things at the walls before adding the roof, if the roof falls it could be any number of reasons. If the walls are known to work and you add the roof, when it falls you know the roof is the part that's bad and not the walls.

How about they add clerics to the temples for healing, curing, and restoration before you start messing with the classes.

I don't really like nerfs as a general rule, but if you going to do it, do it to every class, not just the ones that personally annoy you. Wizards take 1 level of warrier to get the heavy armor proficiency for still spells, and even the harper scout can be abused given its discipline and tumble class skills. The best idea said so far is to look at the most abused BUILDS, not classes, and use the faction system to root them out.

I'm casting my vote for just leaving it alone as it is. Seems every time something is gotten rid of, something else pops up to take its place.

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sun May 23, 2004 3:57 pm

Alexiagold wrote:And vs things like Drow or Giz, who have 50 SR at level 40, well Mord + Greater Spell breach + epic SR penetration = no big problem dealing with thier SR even at level 20 in sorc.

I thought racial SR was capped at 30?

Post by **TGPO** » Sun May 23, 2004 4:02 pm

toolset limitations are 32, however that does not apply to scripted commands. Its a work around for some of the problems in the toolset.

Back to topic now please

EvilIguana966 · Post by **EvilIguana966** » Sun May 23, 2004 4:19 pm

5 level limit on some classes is a very good idea. Any decent DM doesnt let somone do a powergamer build like that unless theres a very good in character reason.

And would the mental midgets please refrain from complaining about "Nerfing". Balance is necessary in any online game to make it potentially fun for everyone. We are, after all, in beta. The whole "this is PW action" argument is over used and pointless. This world is a unique blend of many elements that has been painstakingly crafted to be the best. We all know certain builds are simply ultra powerful, and in order to put MORE strategy into the game, the overpowered builds will be limited. That way there are many more viable class combos to use, and we will encounter a much more diverse player base. Sorry Mr 38 sorc 1 monk 1 Pal, you'll have to put some actual thought into your build now.

Denort · Post by **Denort** » Sun May 23, 2004 6:03 pm

Using roleplay as an argument here is flawed. If you truely wanted to roleplay then the classes you and your companions have taken should not come into it. Your character would base their reaction to other characters on race, appearance, personality and what abilities they have. There would be no "Ye gads man! Thou hast taken but one level of shadowdancer? Thou deservest to be struck down by the great God DM!"

In my opinion, the whole idea of roleplay at "level up" time is taking classes that match your role, not being forced to adjust your role to match your classes.

And to those that want a minimum of 10 levels in each class. I salute you for doing your part in abolishing the Harper Scout. May the world never again see such an ineffective excuse for a prestige class. :wink:

Devlin · Post by **Devlin** » Sun May 23, 2004 6:05 pm

Sarcasm aside from his post he does have some fairly good points. They may not be popular, but do make some sense. Most of the older player seem to be with me on South and on Pacific. But lets not get into a pissing match and stay on topic..