NS4 going PvM only?

[mining]

So you can dispel it? Does TS spell stack?

My point being, if you have a fght rogue WM in AO vs SL.

No aasimar in SL for spot bonus
+4 SL vs +25 AO
+3 ab ac saves AO

With a +7 helm and a TS helm (if it stacks) then they are capped. Whereas SL is stuck at a flat 31 with the same setup. Even with c/c scrols at 15 rounds a pop, we can't get more than 41.

And that's just the first non-casting spotter that came to mind... monk or rogue AA? monk WM (no c/c available at all)?

It doesn't stack, which is the point. It is undispellable, though, like all job tokens.

[nwnnsw]

AO has permanent bonuses of:

+2 disc / +4 taunt / +1 Strength on Exterminator
+1 con/ +5 spot / +3 lore on Slaver.

Your bonuses are actually quite good, certainly better than I remembered .

I stand corrected. It doesn't list. Is there anyway of having it show up in the journal like the other factions?

[Bargeld]

I'm sure when NC got their job bonuses, they specifically weren't given base spot bonuses of 4 (or even 5 in ao's case!) because those are terribly min/max skills to stack. The only reason I'm harping on it now is that I honestly wasn't even aware of it. It's an enemy faction's job bonuses so I don't actually test or see them myself, and the jobs are so new, with minimal documentation that it's more than trivial to just go look up and see those bonuses. The nsWiki still says they get a grenade that deals acid damage and the 2nd job has no entry.

One of the issues that I have regarding all of the AO jobs in general is that it's not being handled in the same manner as monk speed, the TS token stacking in NC and AO, or many other 'obvious' oversights or imbalances. You put changes into effect, then listened to the players, agreed to their logic and then changed it. You admit that 3 ab ac saves is OP, now it comes out that they have 25 spot bonus due to jobs (regardless of stacking or not) and yet nothing changes even tho i'm sure it makes absolute logical sense to you. Before the spot token was added, did anyone on the team point out that they already had +5 spot as a base bonus? I'd like to think that if someone had, then it would have been taken into consideration, either by choosing a different option than the TS token, or by changing +5 spot to say +5 listen or something else.

The same is true with multi-logging. It's been a minor, yet constant topic for years and years, for as long as I can remember. And the DM/dev staff all agree that it's lame and causes imbalance, just like building out of faction and raiding with it along side your in-faction buddies. Everyone agrees this stuff sucks, yet nothing gets done at all. It can't be made a rule because it can't be enforced, or it requires too much work to enforce it. Well make it a rule so maybe people do it less. It's illegal to speed while driving your car, but there aren't enough police to enforce it 100%, so do you just give up and not make the law? No, you make it a rule and you bust people when it's in front of you.

[BlkMamba]

the TS token stacking in NC and AO

.

NC's stacks, AO's does not

its no different than useing a helm, thats undispellable

[Rufio]

I have absolutely 0 issues the true seeing token. To me it seems like an example of a really well balanced job token. It gives a bonus that isn't beyond what other characters have easy access to (non-stacking true seeing), there isn't any unusual stacking rules, there is a clear advantage over using the token over a helm or scroll (being undispellable), it is useful to a wide variety of builds, and it is thematically appropriate for the faction (dragons traditionally have true seeing).

I also have no problem with the +5 spot job bonus. Again, it is thematically appropriate for the faction (dragons traditionally have very high spot); it isn't unprecedented (TC and SL both get +4 spot, and RK gets +7 discipline, example of a really useful skill getting more than a +4 bonus); it doesn't synergize with the true seeing token unreasonably since true seeing would be available through helms, scrolls, or spells anyways; it is a skill that has somewhat of a niche use (It only really helps spotter builds); and it helps defend against what is often considered to be one of the most overpowered abilities without flat-out neutralizing HiPS. I can also tell you that from my experience in TC, having a +4 spot bonus doesn't actually make designing spotters any easier. TC has the disadvantage of extreme difficulty accessing c/c, which plays a role, but there aren't any clearly superior spotter builds in TC because of the job bonus.

On the other hand, i do think the +3 ab/ac/saves token is quite overpowered. Mostly because it is unprecedented for any faction to get outright ab and ac bonuses, it isn't something that other factions can truly replicate through spells, items, or abilities, and it gives a clear mathematical advantage when building characters.

[Monkey]

...The same is true with multi-logging. It's been a minor, yet constant topic for years and years, for as long as I can remember. And the DM/dev staff all agree that it's lame and causes imbalance, just like building out of faction and raiding with it along side your in-faction buddies. Everyone agrees this stuff sucks, yet nothing gets done at all. It can't be made a rule because it can't be enforced, or it requires too much work to enforce it. Well make it a rule so maybe people do it less. It's illegal to speed while driving your car, but there aren't enough police to enforce it 100%, so do you just give up and not make the law? No, you make it a rule and you bust people when it's in front of you.

Well put, Bargeld.

Establishing clear guidelines about dual logging is such an obvious, simple and sensible thing to do, but it isn't happening. I don't know if it's stubbornness in not wanting to follow our suggestions or that they've just been beaten into submission by chronic exploiters and have lost interest in trying to create a level playing field.

Failure to establish and enforce sensible rules in PvP has led to too many good players losing interest in PvP here. For that and a few other reasons, fun, balanced PvP is no longer possible between AO/RK and the other two factional alliances.

[Defouraillator]

Well, ultimately, the idea is not to know if abuse of dual-log is an exploit, or if AO token is OP (though in both cases I'm inclined to think so), the thing is : HOW TO MAKE PVP FUN AGAIN ?!

I've been thinking about that, and here is just an idea : why not fighting for the sake of fighting, since there is a place perfectly suited for that purpose, i.e. the pit in Avendell... I'm thinking on an idea about that, and I'll write a post soon about this topic.

The server I've been playing in mostly before joining NS4 was a pure PVP server, and there was a good lot of angry shouts, whining and insulting tells, as there is always a lot of frustration and misplaced proudness involved in PVP. But apart from that, PVP is (as many players I guess) my thrill, it is the best fun and pleasure I can get from a RPG game like NWN, and I really hope I can still get it from this beautifully built world called Aetheria.

Personally I don't care if a faction has now a relic monopoly and gets a perma 25% xp bonus. You can keep it, damn useless as it will become. I read enough irrelevant and arrogant (non)arguments here to know that no discussion is possible.

I already left the server indeed, a few months ago, because I was pissed by those ridiculous unfair fights, but like Monkey I came back because of the people here, or at least some of them. But I'll gladly fight fair and square each and every one of you

[Ajantis.]

Lets have a relic capture event again.

[Finnoker]

If we go back to the start is the problem AOs got overpowerd jobs or always duellogg in pvp?.

If we start with jobs, if i dont remeber wrong we dident have jobs at all just a little while ago we still fight anyway. We dident (if we cant have the best il run away from this server) weird you dident cry then that the server was unbalans?.

How can duelogg be ok in PvM and not PvP?

Pvp buffs yes PvM levling faster and can go to harder places.

And i now 4 sure AO/RK dosent have more % duellogers then anyone else.

Im ok with taking away the duell thing but it wont change anything something else vill come up thats totally crasy wrong.

We should be glad 4 al the things they alredy made so the server gets so fair it can.

I do really think you just hit the axe in ns4 neck cause you put neg things in evryones head.

But il guess i you get happy if they band all that duelloggers and no PvP and we are back to the first NwN Campaign?:).

Cya in the real world Finnoker

[Monkey]

If we go back to the start is the problem AOs got overpowerd jobs or always duellogg in pvp?.

The AO job items aren't a problem for me. Skillful play and good strategy are far more important than having all the best gear or a slightly overpowered build.

I haven't enjoyed PvP against AORK because over the years I've seen too much bad sportsmanship from AORK players:
1. Insults and nastiness on shout.
2. Exploits like intentionally bugging relics, transition spamming and /makesafe abuse.
3. Dual logging buffers and healers.
4. Habitual chugging
5. Valuing "winning" (controlling the relics as much as possible) over competitive fun and fair play.

Of course this happens in all factions to some degree and it seems to be happening much less now that AORK is on top. No doubt AORK players see far more nastiness directed at them than they deserve. However, my experiences as a TCNC player competing against MASL and competing against AORK has been very different. In general, MASL has been more honorable as an opponent and rival and more enjoyable to play against. That's my honest opinion. Deny it if it's too painful to accept.

There is a long history behind the hostility many veterans feel toward AORK that will take time and effort to reverse. Hopefully current AORK players can understand the history and reach out to the rest of the server to make it more fun for all.

(I've stated this fully expecting denial and accusations in response.)

[Ogami]

this stupid and highly offensive thread reminds me one i've seen in the recent past, I've raided with a cleric and 3 guys from nc tc defend melencia, one keeps spamming implodes without reading fort was about 12 higher his dc, another keeps spamming sling for 1 digits damage, after a while a 3rd logs a (yuck) rogue /sd scyther. in the time the cradle is getting defeated they are able to get the hp down to 50%, i grab relic, go out and cast a great restore. I get a tell "you chugged" from some of them, I ignore it.
The day after I see here a thread that becomes 5 pages of crying from the player (the one with the 1 digits damage ranger paladin harper). After a while I raid MA with a cleric and the same guy logs a meleer wizard gets beaten like uhm 5 times. The next day i am told there is a thread on forum about clerics healing isn't right.
Now I was told that bargy posted all this after being righteously kicked by the whole team (just me and 1 or 2 weren't on). And nobody was dual logging. But I don't see why we are not allowed to dual log when there are multiloggers defending sl almost always.
When miner and lepis found vermin hiding RK relic in the tower of menzoduran (climbed it with makesafe) the one before guild halls and shops, we have found him, killed him, then fighters and barbarians, pure mages with balor, arcane archers and assassins appeared , it was obvious that when you saw one actively fighting the one were left idle, miner and lepis killed them all and the guy shouted gfs I'm tired to be a octopus. Did we complain ? NO!. I just asked " just curiosity how much multibox can u go up to? " he answered : 8x .
One day KOS-MOS raided SL , picked a relic , slaughered everyone who chased from sl to nc, captured and found a cleric palemaster (the ones that if u build right have 62 ab 75 ac and epic warding) and a pure fighter. Killed em both, then the fighter which was a multi boxer logged a rogue sd, brought it to nc, respawned the fighter and brought in the rogue sd, a finesse way to change the raider within the 30 mins limit, yes is that popular youtube video guys but as usual dms saw nothing I'm not really the type who goes cryin to the mommy for every rules breaking or i would have to screen shot everything certain ppl say and spend more time reporting than playing.
Have never reported when certain sl players which im not gonna bother to mention the names, (if these are reading they will know) when their fighter fails to rumble a raider in menzoduran temple they used to log a stunner monk bound in western slope to intercept. Saw this happen when raiding ma too, sl wm fails to defend logs a sl stunner in angmar oasis waiting the raider. But saw a worst thing happen even more times than this : MA people logging a MA toon (example : palemaster) in angmar oasis after failed to defend MA (example :with their sl pure sorc) and they keep talking to the dragon so that no one can take it without killing the palemaster first , is it legit? first not many toons can kill a palemaster, at least not the ao/rk toons that don't have the cot divine damage or the tc 2d8 unstoppable elemental damage (call it divine). Is it legit to hold the dragon this way? But most important , have we EVER complained? No we didn't. I've seen this happen at least a half dozen times, and i always took the sneaky alternative ( and long long ) routes. Shout: taking the scenic route? Shout: yes indeed!



Because yea, we are no more than 13-15 players including all the 4 guilds of ao and rk. I know that only the TSS are about this number, and between tha nc/tc guilds they can log 25-30 players, I've seen it in the last event. Oh even seen that last month, they must have planned a facebook event because they were 15 tc nc players vs 5 of us, even korr joined them. Did we complain ? No… But yes I remember some people are not happy of the "whole server against ao/rk" from posts I've seen here, these people left and when returned they did it only to pvm. You can see them log in with tagged toons, and they will never go down to the relic war. So it's not only you missing people.
We are missing people also because the really limited choices of builds in ao, and the limited choices of races in rk, (ha too has races limited I don't know why).
It's 5 or 6 months I don't build a toon, after 2 sl 3 ma 3 nc 6 tc 12 rk and 33 ao toons {Rated R for obscenely large numbers} + various crafters i leveled up to 40 just for fun, I wanted something new, a pure water genasi cleric in ao, for hellball funnies, because duergar isnt an option, because earth genasi (my favorite) isn't an option, and i find it cant join ao faction, for what reason i have no idea. But I'm sure it could join MA (63 ab 71/81 ac cleric palemaster with warding and massive regen with immunity stun, dev crit, etc).
I tried to make decent spotters to counter the sds (which we can't build i wonder why) but always failed, archer with 127 spot? Crappy damage, (at least without 2d8 divine acid token) and spot often fails, let's say 50% of times they attempt to hide they do hide and strike with power, doing that in close range the archer is dead. Made a highest possible wisdom cleric spotter with implode and ice storms, 125 spot, they seem to hide 60% of times, most of them can be imploded, but one guy (kudos to him) has built a 52 fort vs spells cleric sd with epic dodge and nice ac. He just has more healing than the damage ice storms and searings can do. Did I complain? naah, shouted gfs. Next time i fought him i used the arcane archer, I raided sl, waited him at crossroads, we fought from there to sleeth (13 minutes) He could still hips from me staying in close range and attacking swiftly, i had to use slow wand to increase the distance, and give me more chance to fight, (epic dodge + deflect arrow and NOW you gave them 50% undispellable conceal) . He casted dispell, not once but few times, i had to struggle with buffer wand in avendell crossing, we moved to ogre pass, archeological camp, my blinding speed ran out so our speeds were the same, i had to run all the way to sleeth, shooting arrows when i could corner sneak , or when distance was enough. After 13 mins we both exahusted were in sleeth: dragon eye, he was nearly out of heals I got some lucky crits and killed my enemy. I don't want to try that again, doubt i would be so lucky, at least not with the new 2d8 damage and conceal on those monster unkillable clerics. Lol nobody could kill him even with a good rumble.

I don't know if is a lucky combination of factors that made us win the relic bla bla bla war, we surely have some really good builders but I am going to think there is another factor. Don't you think that the constant nerfing ao over ages and boons to the others just as they cry here (endless list of cookies to assassin is an example) didn't produce the effects you wanted but the opposite?
There are a lot of builds sl can do , that i've never seen yet. And some good ones I've seen aeons ago (when their guild was made by totaly different ppl)

Meditate people, meditate….

[Delisha Zrazorian]

In my 3 years on NS I've found that there are a few poor sports in all the factions, trying to stereotype any one faction over another is subjective at best...

This is why Fury's policy with other factions has always been... and always will be...

We judge a skunk not by his stripe... but by his stink

[Bargeld]

But I don't see why we are not allowed to dual log when there are multiloggers defending sl almost always.

When miner and lepis found vermin hiding RK relic in the tower of menzoduran (climbed it with makesafe) ... the guy shouted gfs I'm tired to be a octopus. Did we complain ? NO!. I just asked " just curiosity how much multibox can u go up to? " he answered : 8x .

One day KOS-MOS raided SL , picked a relic , slaughered everyone who chased from sl to nc, captured and found a cleric palemaster (the ones that if u build right have 62 ab 75 ac and epic warding) and a pure fighter. Killed em both, then the fighter which was a multi boxer logged a rogue sd, brought it to nc, respawned the fighter and brought in the rogue sd, a finesse way to change the raider within the 30 mins limit

That's all the same player, alka. He abides by the relog rules. On some other topics though, he had a bit more 'fight fire with fire' approach than the rest of us, and usually he limited that to targeting the actual players that had done it to him in the past... which was the case here with mamba. He held out playing here for a long time, but like most of the 'old' players, his time has come to move on, so all your problems with him and his style should be resolved.

Have never reported when certain sl players which im not gonna bother to mention the names, (if these are reading they will know) when their fighter fails to rumble a raider in menzoduran temple they used to log a stunner monk bound in western slope to intercept. Saw this happen when raiding ma too, sl wm fails to defend logs a sl stunner in angmar oasis waiting the raider. But saw a worst thing happen even more times than this : MA people logging a MA toon (example : palemaster) in angmar oasis after failed to defend MA (example :with their sl pure sorc) and they keep talking to the dragon so that no one can take it without killing the palemaster first , is it legit?

That was me, and in both of those cases, the toons i logged outside of the defending areas were ones that I had just raided with. I've said it to you guys a million times... If i raid with a toon, then have to log a defender, I'm limited to relogging back to that raider and that one single raider only. And I'd do it again. Btw, laufer isn't a stunner monk, he's DC 36 stun from natural from monk lvls + wisdom. He was relogged because I had just raided with him and, again, that's my one option to log outside of defense. On the other hand, this could have been someone else altogether... if so, its an MA player and I know who it is, and he plays by the same rules that I do. I should also mention that this tactic has been used against me in the past by your team... except that it was a dual logged toon used to hold the dragon while the other log caught up. I know this because I attacked it with an SD, trying to get it off the dragon and succeeded. After getting a return attack, I was able to use the dragon after cooldown because they weren't paying attantion and never re-talked to the dragon.

...or the tc 2d8 unstoppable elemental damage (call it divine).

The same token that the guy with the sling up above used to deal single digit damage? SL and TC tokens are not the same. Both are 1d8. TC is a random element each time you use it, and they have been told not to dual apply, but I don't play there, or with them so I don't know if they honor it. But its a null point anyway. The SL token is 1d8 acid, 2x/rest, and will not stack with itself.

There are a lot of builds sl can do , that i've never seen yet. And some good ones I've seen aeons ago (when their guild was made by totaly different ppl)

You mean back when SL was allowed neutral toons?

I've been here over 4 years now, and not once have I ever been banned for breaking rules, exploiting mechanics, or even for anything I've said on shout. Not even a single 24 hr ban or a single warning. Your post is a load of crap, and doesn't even touch on the topics at hand. If you are so confidant that your teams never dual log, then why not support this topic? Based on the experiences you noted here, it appears you would want it also.

[Finnoker]

A grate tip is when it comes new players dont call them noobs or idiots cause they cant get evrything right first times.

I help many new ppl from ex SL/MA and that ends up with they come to us and play.

Take care of the new ppl and you get a better playerbase.

When they shout something anser in tell and help them,, make them feal welcome.

We all need to do are best to make them stay..prb solvd

[VagaStorm]

A grate tip is when it comes new players dont call them noobs or idiots cause they cant get evrything right first times.

qft