Some precisions

[Daltian]

low crit weapon+weapon master, get lots of lvls and use a couple different weapons...laugh as you crit alot but die.

also if your not using hogre sorcs your not doing it right.

Agreed, which means NC can have hogre sorcerers. Admit it would be hilarious if it was allowed as exception.

[Daral0085]

I would actually be really happy if we got that. I don't even care about DC spells, I just want extended mass haste. And bigby. And IGMS. And sorc/SDs. And sorc/PDK.

[mining]

00: SL wins by 41 damage a round on average, which gives a difference value of -6.5 (for 740 HP)
01: SL wins by 2 damage a round on average, which gives a difference value of -0.7
10: Same as 01.
11: AO wins by 7 damage a round on average. However, the fight would take, on average, 45 rounds for AO to win, with a difference value of 34.

Overall, if you're a fighter from SL: You should not use IE against a mirror build.

in which case is 00?? none in IE ??all attack prolly hit and critical damages make that difference of damages??
same question for 01, 10 and 11, that last one i can supose it's both in IE for the comment you put...

00 is neither in IE, 10 is SL in IE, 01 is AO in IE, and 11 is both in IE.

Fighting an AO fighter it is optimal to not use IE as a SL fighter.

[Korr]

Speaking about objectivity and subjectivity, here an exemple of pure subjectivity.
So all that are suposed to be CoT weakness?? I will go point by point:
-Dispel bait ?? In case any vital buff will made it vulnerable to dipell ?? Running 10 class of caster and be dispell bait is not ineherent to all 10 lvl caster? or just in case of CoT ?? If you don't want to be dispell bait with a CoT, go more caster level, none force you to go only 10 caster lvl.
-No Tumble...again this argument is totaly freaky...none of the tumble class (monk,bard,rogue,hs, assassin) are mellee type toon (full bab/d10+HP) .
-No UMD...only 3 class (bard,rogue, assassin) ...this argument is like saying assassin weakness is no discipline, or spellcraft...Again, CoT is a melee type toon, why the hell UMD.
-Lack of class to cross with
I always tough CoT was able to cross with, all the avaible class in NC (excluding HS, and PDK for server rule). I don't understand what are you saying...
- Excluding pure barb/fighter, all toons suck once raised...it's not ineherent to CoT...
Assassins Pros:
- 15d6 minimun sneak attack?? at lvl5 assassin get that?? what do you want to say with that 15d6 minimun sneak attack??
- 28/30 levels of investisment in a class for a 6/12 second ethereal form (you can't do nothing except go hide)is a Huge gamechanger feat.
- 60 % conceal...i already mentioned that was a good add...but again why going 15 assassin for it, if i have 50 %, same sneak damage and epic dodge with rogue. Also going rogue, i can always bump my sad saves with black guard, or go SD, and have a Hips /round and not only the ethereal form.

-Why are you changing the comparison for a 30 CoT to a 5 assassin? The comparison was 30/30, they both have drawbacks, they both have bonuses. But again you want to negate all the bonuses of assassin to some other VERY subjective point. You talk about the "good parts" of assassin (Im guessing?), but dont mention the death blow, NOR the paralysis... how did that slip by only the 60% conceal I already mentioned! Oh and nothing but hide... which gives you the chance for a free paralyzing death attack. Or escape and apply the death poison and sneak back over.

UMD would seem like much to those building in AO, RK, TC, SL, MA... or anywhere but where you have 1 class with alignment restrictions (which is in opposition to 2 of the 5 total class options [before you say it i did not say prestige class... I said class])

A monk(stunner, runner) can die and get up and be fine, a cleric can die and come back pretty decent, an archer can die and come back up fine, a wizard/sorc can die and come back up slightly weaker (no buffs on... still spells to sling). Dieing doesnt take away The archers arrows, the monks speed or stun DC, the wizards damage spells (no IGMS doesnt need that fox/eagle to work). Assassins rogue and blackguards all still have their bonus damage. SDs can still hips. PMs are still crit immune, RDDs are still strong (pure RDDs cant redragon and is forced to reequip all gear). Druids can still cast and still shift (albiet twice if you died while shifted). Barbarian and DWD dont lose their DR. CoT loses their 1 ability if they die....

By your standars, CoT need Tumble and UMD, cause is suck whitout it...more or less...
You are full of rencor against SL, for some reasons i don't know. That's OK, i don't really care, but again, if you have nothing constructive and objective to say, don't post.

I never said CoT needed any of that. In fact you are the one always saying things need changed... I am not. If the very object 15d6 damage from a level 30 assassin is too much for you to understand Im sorry I can try to spell everything out a little more. So with that in mind 30 assassin levels leaves 10 more levels, of which they can be rogue. It only takes 1 rogue level to get 1d6 sneak attack damage... so a level 30 assassin has a MINIMUM of 15d6 damage from death attack.

If you dont understand how some classes have advantages to other, including access to skills, feats, abilities, etc. I can break that down into the simplest possible terms as well. Though I dont understand why I should have to, you are doing any research at all. There are 2 wikis (nsrealm wiki for realm specifics... nwnwiki for most mechanic specifics) with tons of information that you seem to just completely ignore because it might make you think about something in a way you didnt before. 30 CoT has the weakness of no max tumble... thats not subjective that objective. There is no way to get 30 CoT and 40+ tumble... period.

[Korr]

Many of the SL wins are, on an hypotetical difference of AB/AC that you will probably never found in game...

Not likely to find I agree... but remember most every discussion for almost everyone that posts on the forums is in the spirit of min-maxing.

Some toons will sacrifice AC in lieu of other things, so it might be more prominent than you think.

For example. Archers and wizards dont use shields... while an archer would have more dex than the wizard the buffs might balance it out.

Archers (usually) are easy to hit and wizards are (almost always) incredibly easy to hit by nature.

Dex fighter vs str fighter usually is a 5-8 (??? i would guess) difference which is where the mediums come in. But 2 str fighters or 2 dex fighters are more polar.

[Daltian]

Now, let's say you and I go toe-to-toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?

[hond]

Korr...really, i don't understand you...first of all, in your original post you never mention 30 cot vs 30 assassin...but no matter... It's really like this , you compare class ?? Why not 28 CoT vs 28 assassin??
Because all your arguments go to the sake, and the suposed weakness of the CoT , will disapear totaly...
RDD 30 , DwD 30, PM30,Assassin 30, etc...will better than CoT30...so CoT is weak and need a bump (+4 dodge and +40 umd at lvl30 will fine )...
You want to participe in a discution, but you come with lame argumentation, in order to proove CoT and assassin class are on pair...giving 1 exemple of the 100 posible , where CoT is inferior to assassin.
How many NC player (less you) can say that whithout looking for a total idiot ???
CoT is OP mainly for wrath...and for the quantity of handy bonus feats they have access.
Here some little exemples :
stunner : Improve Stunning I-X, Great Wisdom I-X
Smitter : Great Smite I-X
Melee : Epic Weapon, Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, Epic Damage Reduction
Caster Cleric: Auto quicken ,Auto Still, Auto silenced, Epic spell focus, Epic spell penetration, Improved Combat Casting, Great Wisdom
Wrath is a fighter token +20 who last a long, as weapon is included in cap , and you can use +8 weapon, with +12 AB you are on Top, but all those feats, make the class the perfect complement to many types of builds...
10 lvls CoT can be (not is) : +5 epic feats, +5 saves, disc and spot access +100 HPs , a smite evil (always handy vs SL), a lay on hand...
Now compared, with the benefit of taking 10 assassin (5d6 sneak, DC 20+ int mod death attack,spot, tumble and UMD, uncanny dodge and +5 vs poison, cat grace, and ultravision), and you will understand why there is a lot of cleric CoT, stunner CoT, melle CoT, smitter CoT, and any kind of CoT toons, and why there is no toons cross classed with assassin, but with rogue (prolly same benefit +1 feat - ultravision).
Now take benefit of 10 RDD, DwD,PM, and Shifter and compare it again with Assassin, and again there is no match...
Those arguments are subjective or objective??

-Why are you changing the comparison for a 30 CoT to a 5 assassin? The comparison was 30/30

Your 30 CoT vs 30 assassin is totaly subjective, as only you ,can make a class comparation, based on the only case when CoT is suposed inferior to assassin , and coming to the conclusion that assassin is fine enought as is now, cause 30 CoT suck bad...

30 CoT has the weakness of no max tumble... thats not subjective that objective. There is no way to get 30 CoT and 40+ tumble... period.

There isn't any logical reason to go 30 CoT, less 1 bonus feat and +2 ab/damage,but going 26 and take tumble or/and UMD if your toon need it..
You take a stupid exemple and go deeper on the stupidity, on each arguments, while you can just say...OK..30 CoT is not a good exemple, lets try it with something more logical...

[mining]

We know assassin is a pretty blah dipping class, 60% conceal was a little bandaid, but we do have more significant stuff to make it a 'usable' prc for more things in SL.

Edit: and for pedantry's sake, the 30/+9 DR that you get from 30 CoT is definitely worth the -4 AC .

[Rufio]

25/+9 actually, but yeah, that is crazy powerful. Easily the most overlooked, yet one of the most useful aspects of CoT's. It is like pure Barb DR, DI and EDR all rolled into one with no need for investment in con. Dragons, AA's and pure paladins (if the CoT is neutral) can beat it, but that is about it in pvp.

[Korr]

Well since this all stemmed from me quoting you talking about how the level 30 abilities of a CoT were too overpowered thats where that came from. I also never said that CoT and Assassin are on par.


What I DID do was point out that CoT has drawbacks (like everything) that whenever you talk about CoT you NEVER mention.

I DID also point out that Assassin has some crazy nice abilities (like everything) that whenever you talk about assassin you NEVER mention.



And yet for some reason when I compare classes its always subjective. When YOU compare classes its always objective? What a joke!

[hond]

you talking about how the level 30 abilities of a CoT were too overpowered

When i said that??
Never speak about a lvl 30 CoT, as i still thinking that +8 Dr is way enought and max lvl 26 for bonus feat ...I think i never faced a lvl 30 Cot, in 1 year playing the server...In my case , why speaking of something who don't exist ??

What I DID do was point out that CoT has drawbacks (like everything) that whenever you talk about CoT you NEVER mention

And what i did,is showing those drawback was only existing in 1 case of 100 (the 30 CoT toon), not something inherent to the class , but only to 1 build of this class...it's simple...If you decide to go 30 CoT for the +9 DR, you can't complain of the lack of tumble and UMD...AS you can always go lvl 26 and don't suffer it...

I DID also point out that Assassin has some crazy nice abilities (like everything) that whenever you talk about assassin you NEVER mention

What is crazy nice ability ??
On Assassin level 4 they can cast True Strike 1x/day as a level 5 caster.same effect with 1 wiz/sorc
On Assassin level 6 they can cast Cat's Grace 1x/day as a level 15 caster.same as rod
On Assassin level 10 they get Permanent Ultravision Permanence vs temporal scroll,helm, gear
On Assassin level 11 they can cast Fox's Cunning 1x/day as a level 15 caster.same as rod
On Assassin level 15 they can cast Freedom of Movement 1x/day as a level 7 caster.better the rod
On Assassin level 15 the Improved Invisibility feat improves to 60% concealment.+10 % compared with rod,but only lvl 7 for dispell check
On Assassin level 20 they can cast Clairaudience/Clairvoyance 3x/day as a level 15 caster.+5 lv compared with scrolls

In all that list i don't see anything a rogueX/wizard1 Can't do ... +10 % conceal and perma UV as top feats

On Assassin level 20 Improved Ghostly Visage - Assassin becomes Ethereal for 1rd
On Assassin level 30 Improved Ghostly Visage - Assassin becomes Ethereal for 2rds

And you need a unique prestige class, 20 and 30 lvl , to be untouchable during 1 and 2 rounds...but what do you do during those 6 and 12 seconds...It's a good defensive feat..nothing more...not worth going 30 assassin for that...adding that using this feat dispell your best argument to kill oponent

And finaly the death attack...I will not explaining how easy is, to counter it...
Just saying that the maximum ever DC is 60
Reach that number is prolly imposible in PvP terms, as you need to go 30 assassin,max Int start, Int race , a +4 book, all Int during leveling,using 6 epic feat in INT and only in temple, which toon will run with 47 AB, and so nub stats, that just imposible to see in real ( only Alka can made that ) ...And you only have 1 shoot
Adding there some extra conditions not mentioned by wiki( You need initiative), so that toon need bloody, initiative and superior initiative feats, making it worst, if that posible...
The Death attack is so hard to make working , and the average DC so mediocre, that assassin are gadget toons...You can make 1 , and use it against a 45-50 fort toon with no spot/ detection, no UMD (in case you want to paralyze), and only in defense ...wich reduct drasticaly the utility of it.
On top of that, if oponent save your death attack, killing him will result a funny task.
If you don't want a Death attack DC toon, you will not use assassin but rogue, for same sneak damages, more feats, more skills points, Epic dodge, crippling strike, and posibility to cross class with other prestige class (like BG to compensate your awfull saves)...

PD: a pure fighter Wisdom (+2 race,+4 book ,+10 lvl ,+6 epic feat) CAN have 12 shoots at 72 DC stun fist (every where)+ KD token+ 20 AB token. Just to compare with max dc 60 (in Temple)

[frogofpeace]

I think i never faced a lvl 30 Cot, in 1 year playing the server...In my case , why speaking of something who don't exist ??

You have. You lost a couple times, you won a couple times. gf's

[Daral0085]

I also have a 30 CoT which has fought on numerous occasions against MASL.

[mining]

Assassin II is undispellable;

+10% conceal is innacurate:
60% conceal = 1.2 * 50% conceal.
Blind fight squares both sides
36% conceal = 1.44 * 25% conceal, i.e. it's nearly 1.5* as effective as regular II.

True Strike lasts 9 seconds for assassin (iirc)

You also left out the big old hide/ms bonus token, which is, you know, pretty good.

Finally, your Death DC is actually lower than the paralyze death attack - which is the point of ethereal; it sets you up for a bio Death Attack after you morde them.

[Amoenotep]

just wipe already