Take wizard back

[Ajantis.]

ghostwise token is a camouflage spell (druid)

[Bargeld]

1 turn = 10 rounds
my trick clc has roughly 7 chr mod (24 chr, buffed), so 12 turns, 120 rounds.

Ghost token is like 1 turn /char lvl

[Rufio]

The druid camouflage spell gives 33% concealment and no hide now, so the ghostwise token is different, unless you meant that the duration is the same.

1 turn/level at level 40 is 40 minutes, so effectively permanent.

As for trickery domain, 12 turns = 12 minutes which is a huge amount of time. That is almost twice as long as CoT wrath. You shouldn't have any trouble at all keeping it active for an entire encounter.

[Alkapwn]

Nerfing Hide will just kill the class for the most part not to mention SL's only unique class. Most of my spotters aren't wis based at all and seem to have very little problems spotting any hider that i've come across. I also have 2 max hide builds that get spotted fairly easily considering the amount of feats/books i sunk into them. And to be honest a max hide build can do very little damage comparitivly considering most likely your trying to hide the whole time and spam in a flurry here and there.
TC/NC have the best options for spotters . I don't even bother taking an sd to Daeron with the Aasamirs they got there. You want to talk about something being overpowered lol.
Having a couple spot feats doesnt assure victory vs a hider
having a couple hide feats doesnt assure victory vs a spotter
Thats the way it should be and thats the way it is in my opinion.

Show me a build that you think can't be beaten and I'll beat it with something regardless

[Amoenotep]

my dm avatar can't be beaten...

[Rufio]

Alka, nerfing ghostwise and trickery domain isn't an across-the board hide nerf. 127 hide builds would still be possible if you wanted one.

I'm thinking ghostwise would get +5 hide instead of +10. Trickery domain I'm thinking could be cut in half also, so with 30 caster levels you would be getting +7 hide instead of +15. A ghostwise trickery cleric could still cap hide. An assassin could still cap hide. A high level shadow evade could still be used to cap hide. A bard could still be used to cap hide.

What this would do is level the playing field a bit for hipser races, instead of ghostwise being the no-brainer race. As it is now, you can get 127 hide on a ghostwise without too much trouble.

[weasel423]

What this would do is level the playing field a bit for hipser races, instead of ghostwise being the no-brainer race.

Level the playing field for hipser races? really? There is always a preferred race to take for ANY build. I am not sure what you are trying to say...

edit:
maybe we should nerf Aasamir to level the playing field for paladin races... (no, you don't get rogues in exchange... you know who you are)

[Shadowalker]

maybe we should nerf Aasamir to level the playing field for paladin races...

No, give Aasamir keen sences, so they seek out the wretched evil that hides in the dancing shadows.

[Rufio]

Level the playing field for hipser races? really? There is always a preferred race to take for ANY build. I am not sure what you are trying to say...

edit:
maybe we should nerf Aasamir to level the playing field for paladin races... (no, you don't get rogues in exchange... you know who you are)

I get what you are saying, but the comparison doesn't fit. Ghostwise is 100 miles ahead of any other race as a hider while Drow is arguably better than Aasimar for a paladin. You could make a Plain human paladin and only lose 1 ab.

Use anything other than ghostwise on a hider and you have lost between 8 and 14 hide, which is a hell of a lot mechanically.

[weasel423]

No, give Aasamir keen sences, so they seek out the wretched evil that hides in the dancing shadows.

senses... can't you just detect evil or something

[Alkapwn]

Alka, nerfing ghostwise and trickery domain isn't an across-the board hide nerf. 127 hide builds would still be possible if you wanted one.

I'm thinking ghostwise would get +5 hide instead of +10. Trickery domain I'm thinking could be cut in half also, so with 30 caster levels you would be getting +7 hide instead of +15. A ghostwise trickery cleric could still cap hide. An assassin could still cap hide. A high level shadow evade could still be used to cap hide. A bard could still be used to cap hide.

What this would do is level the playing field a bit for hipser races, instead of ghostwise being the no-brainer race. As it is now, you can get 127 hide on a ghostwise without too much trouble.

You missed the point. I can spot ghostwise and trickery clerics already why nerf them to uselessness?
Really what sd's are giving you so much trouble that you think they need to be nerfed? And what are using to counteract them? I pvp everyday with both these type of builds. i can build a wizard/r elf in 3 days to 40 with 12 wisdom and 116 spot and no special elite gear and 2 buffs and can spot any of your run of the mill sd's without ANY problems. And thats not even a good spotter build.

Why not instead use the resouces already provided to you by your factions and make a decent spotter or listener!!??

Why not prove to me that they're overpowered in game? Build one come raid SL then I'll show you how they suck already

[mining]

My general thoughts on ghostwise is that it is really, really, really [etc] good.

The thing with HiPS is: Its a skill with connotations. 1 rogue/x/SD with 120 odd hide will *always* smash an arbitrary amount of non-spotters.
Equally, an X/X/SD will also *always* smash an arbitrary number of non-spotters. Its just that the first has much more lee-way in dealing with spotters - i.e. anything without keen senses (cough Aas cough) can be slaughtered by a good SD (I know this from experience - Roz only killed SDs through the magic of... magic. And low fort saves/will saves). A non-focused spotter will be mince-meated by a SD that hasn't just dipped SD as a dex build.

Basically I guess what I'm saying is that I see 3 main SD type builds:

'Pure' SD which relies on HiPS for damage, defence, etc. This is the Vermin (though to be fair, no damage and has some non-HiPS defences) and the [generic 29/6/5 build].

'Hybrid' SD which has HiPS but isn't uber focused on it. This is the 35/5 monk/SDs, Wiz/SDs, Cleric/SD-lites (i.e. only like 120 hide and probably drow not deep gnome style), or any SD which can happily whack someone with a stick for a bit.

'lolHiPS' SD which is basically Lokey builds and a few ranger builds and maybe like one or two other builds. No real hide to speak of (50 hide >> 5+d20) and is mainly SD for epic dodge and counter builds w/ minimal spot.

The first is basically an "I win" button in a LOT of situations, but if it CAN be countered, it falls over. 127 hide is absolutely incredibly hard to beat because of stupid modifiers, though. Ghostwise are listenable... but listen sucks horrible. PMs get the best listen capacity, and thats purely because they won't get snuck to death.

The second is probably one of the strongest array of builds in the game. Hard to kill compared to their non-SD compatriots, they *still* do craptons of damage via sneak or spells or you know, anything *normal* builds use for damage, but ignoring AC of a lot of builds. They're much more easily countered by focused spotters, but said spotters will have a harder time dealing with them - i.e. wiz/SD can often beat down on an archer by virtue of pierce resist and IGMS/ice storm/hellball whereas a super-focused bard/SD can't do overly much - but will be much harder to spot.

The third build is basically a "I win vs 70% of builds out there" button. Sure, there are a LOT of spotters - but this SD build doesn't need to invest nearly as much into spot as a focused build, and can HiPShardcounter pure fighter, cleric, barbarian (ok listen, meh), and a lot of other builds - including most non-elfs/deep gnomes. It really is potent, because it's sacrificed like 30 skill points, 2 feats and 5-10 levels (10 for Edodge) into a class. Its not a bad investment, and you get a huge amount of it.

[mining]

Also: Regarding specific race tokens, I feel a lot of them are really, really bloody strong for the minor investment in ECL (lol) and possibly some unfavourable mods (see: Ghostwise lol +10 hide for free on a race that's already nearly perfect for a SD (ok Deep Gnome is otherwise better), Githz which is pretty much the best choice for a melee tank that doesn't need to spot (i.e. sneak immune and not able to chase well, or just really need more AC to survive in melee and can't threaten a SD) and Drow which is pretty much the best choice for anything else because you wreck anything you can get UV off of that can't get UV off of you first.

[report]

Pretty sure 125 hide is legit for an AO ranger - it'd be the same as for a 29/6/5 SD build - ghostwise

For real? Can you post a screen of this AO ranger sneaking in menzoduran @ 125 hide?

How about when your toon is good enough to ding @ 127 spot you read a message *** Your toon has been granted REAL REAL TRUE SEEING (NO JOKE)*** so hips spammers can forget about abusing hips?

[VagaStorm]

Put a timer on hips so you can only use it twise a round, still god, but you can't just hitt it til all combat ques are cleared...