If your only using +2 tomes then your build sacraficed Str, Con, and Int to get 25 dex and 30 wis. When not in dragon form the build will be extremely lacking and won't have needed skill points to survive (will lack either disc, tumble, spell craft, or concentration).
Wrong.
Is it possible to make a blinding speed dragon with +2 tomes, yes. Will that build survive and be worth playing NO!
you can focus on a few different shifter shapes, but what do you really even gain from that? most shifter shapes do the exact same thing: stand there and swing a weapon.
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
To address the multi-form question: Both Tep and Rufio are right and wrong.
Akuma is my example.
I've made a living in PvP lately switching between Drider and Tiger. In groups it's easier because chances are there's someone else to take the heat off me and I can run back shift, change shift, and come back in. This gets VERY ugly if you get caught between shifts - you can have a whole lot of hurt dumped on you in a very short time period. When I first discovered the need for double shift, I got dropped LOTS, between both players chasing me and on lesser occasions, not having enough HP to survive the reshift *doh*. It's much easier now that I have the extra monk levels as not much can catch me, but I can only imagine how much more difficult that 2 round vulnerability would be for those that don't have that extra speed.
So yes, battle shifting is viable and I've proved it (I think at least) in pvp, but keep in mind that the enemy can make it very dangerous and impossible to pull off at times.
-Jesse
Laura/Akuma of TSS
"Brute force solves everything. If you ever find that it doesn't; you're not using enough."
Part of my problem with it is that the forms don't offer enough variety to warrant much changing of forms. Drider is the only form that I ever use as a secondary form on any of my shifter builds. I know there are a few builds out there that will use rak as a secondary form, but for the most part all forms only offer small variations on the stand and swing a weapon theme.
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Amoenotep wrote:uhh...99% of any build in nwn is just different styles of weapon swinging so, why should the shifter be looked at as not enough variety?
Because variety within a build for a shifter == worse at swinging it.
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.
most weapon swinging build have at least a few other versatile combat options. spells, umd, items, hips, stunning fist, fighter kd, barb roar, ranged weapons
For example, my most recent 40 is a ranger/harper build
it can:
Buff itself,
Hips outdoors,
Use items,
Taunt,
Cast a few healing spells,
Cast a sleep spell with a decent DC,
Neutralize poison and remove disease on the fly,
switch between ranged and melee weapons,
switch shields on the fly.
hand out a few party buffs, including some ab buffs,
Spot,
and most importantly it does all of this in the heat of combat.
what can a shifter do on this list when being hacked at by enemies?
Hips (but only if you are in drow form)
Taunt
Heal (but only if you are in undead form or are using regen from demonflesh or slaad form)
Use some DC based abilites (but only if you are in certain forms)
Spot
And then you consider that my build gets 68 ab and 82 ac by itself, even better if a bard is around, and can out-damage some str builds due to favored enemy bonuses, and I begin to wonder why I ever played a shifter in the first place. I mean, I supposedly even gimped myself by taking levels in harper scout.
I had actually given up playing shifters in pvp before the new nerf because I decided they were inferior without more combat options.
Sebastian (TSS) Doc - Rufio of (TSS) - Dagr (TSS)
Raijin {FoN} - Arcadia {FoN} - Geb {FoN}
Or some of the others floating around with 74 AB, 83 AC, plenty of damage and edodge is plausible on a non shifter. Also has IE. And HiPS. Was there really ever a point to GWS?
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.
Amoenotep wrote:uhh...99% of any build in nwn is just different styles of weapon swinging so, why should the shifter be looked at as not enough variety?
Because variety within a build for a shifter == worse at swinging it.
QFT. Shifters have a hard time garnering the feats in order to be good at swinging several types of weapons. You can make a fighter/druid/shifter to gain some feats, but then you have low tumble, lower AC, and a whole host of new weaknesses to try and counter.
'Tep you're the only person I know of that finds shifting in combat easy. It must be extremely easy if your shifters can dance jigs while pointing/laughing and shifting at the same time. I have a hard enough time walking and chewing gum, and the idea of dancing, changing shapes and pointing and laughing all at once makes me afraid, sad, and emotionally unstable all at once.
In my experience fighting with and against non-epic shifter shapes(important caveat), shifting in pvp is just plain difficult and usually puts the shifter on the losing end of an engagement. As soon as an engagement opens, the opponent will get to seize the initiative while the shifter changes forms. Once a shifter or any build is reacting to its opponent, its very difficult to win an engagement as you'll be fighting on the opponents terms. This is especially true as each shape will allow the opponent to know how the shifter will engage them. This puts the shifter at even more of a disadvantage unless the chosen shape has an i win button to beat whatever build its fighting.
Hypothetically, maybe the shifter realizes the shape it started with was a bad choice, maybe quickly after only one round. So the shifter tries to break contact. Well unless circumstances dictate otherwise, the opponent(s) is not going to just let it walk away and most likely will swarm in for the kill. The only way I've seen shifters break contact is when the opponent was tied to a spot (they don't want to leave a cradle zone, or leave their party). Or the shifter had more friends than enemies and its cohorts were able to cover its retreat. Or it cornersneaked or ranger/hipsed, Or it had monk levels and could outrun its opponents. However the only sure ways to break contact was have your enemy outnumbered, which means your shape was superfluous anyway cuz your friends could handle the situation without you. More often than not, the only way a shifter gets to change forms is when they die in combat and respawn.
"Nobody Expects the Northern Inquisition!!!!"
-Blystos Re-
How am I wrong? All builds started with 30 points to divide amongst Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. The higher a stat becomes the more expensive it is in regards to available points. There are only 10 ability increases from 1 to 40. 25 dex and 30 wis is going to cost 29 starting points plus 7 more for dex (or 8 depending if started with 18 or 17 Dex) and 12 more for wisdom (or 13, depending if you started with 18 or 17 Wis). Assuming 17 Dex and 18 Wis a blinding speed druid or shifter dragon required to spend 20 points toward Dex and Wis. 10 from increases and 10 from feats and tomes. Druid's only receive 6 standard post epic feats and 5 bonus feats, for a total of 11 feats that are available for use in great dex or wis. 2 of those feats are needed for blinding speed and dragonform. 2 +2 tomes lowers number of post epic feats required to be spent as great Dex or Great Wis from 10 to 6. With starting Dex 17 and Wis 18 only leaves 1 point unspent at the start for either Str, Con, Int or Cha. Druid class only receives skill points of 4 + Int Modifier. In this example assuming human, build recieves 4 -1 + 1 for total of 4 skill points per level. Most builds need Conc (vs taunts, bigbies and ability to cast in combat), disc (vs disarm and KD), Spot (vs SD's), Tumble (for AC), Spellcraft (for saves and epic spells). That is 5 skill categories and only 4 points per level. Which one is not important to you? Conc, well say goodbye to AC because even a low taunt build will reduce AC by -6 if don't have Conc. Spellcraft, fort and reflex on druid are terrible without the +8 vs spells a druid is death spell bait. Tumble, what lose +4 to AC. Disc, not worth playing melee build if cant survive a kd attempt. Spot, guess have to forgo spot and let SD's just ruin your day.
Oh your thinking using a subrace or something other than human. Any planar touched race and forget melee when Planar turning cleric is around. No save vs turn so build loses ac from dex, deflection and dodge. Pick a race other than human (or human subrace) and guess what only 3 skill points per level, you really going to invest more than 2 tomes on a build that, imo, wasn't worth the 2 +2's to begin with?
Blinding speed dragon (druid) with 2 +2 tomes spent on it will burn up 8 feats just to be a blinding speed dragon. Leaving 3 post epic feat options left. Epic Disc and Epic forts are almost mandatory in NS4, without any build is to vulnerable to KD and stunning fist, or death spells. Really leaving just 1 left for whatever.
Oh don't get caught unshifted. 8 Str means you wont be wearing medium or heavy armor (assuming wasted feat pre-epic for heavy armor option). You won't be carrying around multiple tower shields, due to lack of str. Build most likely only carry small shields further reducing dragon's ac by 6, great. 8 Con means when not in dragon form only have 280 hps without gear and up to 440 with a +8 con belt. When not in dragon form your only going to have base disc of 30 (21 points spent + 10 ES: disc, -1 str stat), not including gear, and possible 57, with +6 rings +8 str gloves and +6 other item (helm). A dexer will be able to KD this.
Going to use Githzerai? Reduced number of feats burned up for Great Dex or Wis from 6 to 2. Oh but your starting Str is 6 and your Int is 6 (-2 to skill points so net affect is 3 skill points per level, what skill is least important: Disc, Tumble, Spell craft, Conc?). Why bother going Gith if going to allow anyone with taunt to lower ac by 6. Which gets left off build, disc, spellcraft tumble? This is a gith build you obviously wanted AC so Tumble won't be sacraficed. Sacrafice disc on a melee build, not likely. So no spot and no spellcraft, wonder if build will survive a finger of death. I know this won't survive a stunning fist attempt by any average stunner. ECL 3 is it really worth using 2 (or more) +2 tomes to make this?
6 Str if you die and get raised until you shift your mostly likely going to be encumbered, so hope there are no hostiles nearby or you'll be back on the floor dead, long before shift can activate. If your thinking your str from gloves will keep you unencumbered guess again, known bug if die shifted when respawn or raised you will have no benefit from worn gear.
When your done grinding months from now to finish: will dragonform still be as it is now or will there be further changes to the shape? 2 +2 tomes to make something that will obviously have weaknesses, won't be able to manuever in tight spaces, and risk dev's deciding more ADJUSTMENTS were needed changing dragon from what you hoped, expected and counted on before you spent the tomes.
Oh by the way, when in dragon shape, yes you'll move faster due to the blinding speed, but your opponents are just going to run thru tight areas that a dragon can not possibly get thru. Forcing dragon to walk around whatever the obstruction was. By the time the dragon runs around it, the opponent has already fled to safety. So didn't matter dragon had blinding speed to begin with.
Speed potions give same speed boast and by the time it ends opponents scamper off runing thru whatever map obstacles are there. There are at least 4 in Wolf's den that I can think of that are especially annoying. Don't need to spend +2 tomes to drink a speed potion.
Murphy's Law: Nothing is as easy as it looks. Everything takes longer than you expect. And if anything can go wrong, It will, at the worst possible moment.
Just to add to the argument, how do you know the dev's are not considering reducing the Gith token from +4 dodge to +2 dodge or worse. Blinding speed used to give +4 to AC but it was determined to be overpowered and reduced to +2.
Just as double bonus for Dodge AC from boots was a gift from the devs, as stated above, so is the Gith +4 dodge token. That can be nerfed at anytime if devs decided it is overpowered or the builds based on it are overpowered.
Murphy's Law: Nothing is as easy as it looks. Everything takes longer than you expect. And if anything can go wrong, It will, at the worst possible moment.
