Dragons

[ashsagoon]

73 AC is great for a caster sure but all I get from 10 RDD levels is essentially 4ac. A PM wizard should be able to get way higher AC as well as being immune to critical hits. How insane is that? Immunity to fire and 4ac or immunity to critical hits and 8ac? I know what I would choose. But PMs have their weaknesses too and I'm not trying to say it's unbalanced. What I'm saying is Peck is one example of a build that you could do in different factions (given not NC).

AO's relic room actually works against dragons. With all the rooms on the sides and the area in the back that dragons can't reach, well I'm giving too much away but I know how I'd use it. I'd rather have something like TC's relic room where a single dragon fear aura can cover almost the entire map and there's only one small obstacle. But that's obviously off topic and not the point. Sure we use the design of the relic room tactically to defend ourselves like everyone should. But that really has nothing to do with dragons.

All those stats I was talking to you about tonight were fully buffed so not necessarily as great as they seem (but not terrible either). It's also with the very best gear that took a LONG time and a lot of hard work to collect. And yes, gear makes a huge difference.

I want the old Kermit resurrected cuz I bet he could beat a dragon (used to take down my druid dragon, except when he got raised in the stonehold

[burrahobbit]

Give me a +4 con dex str and int and i will remake kermit. Or you can just wait, i have a better melee in the works, give me some time. Got a dollar says he can take a RDD dragon in 3 rounds. hehe TD at 40, i am ready..........

[ashsagoon]

The way you level NS5 will be out by the time you get him to 40..... lol jk

[cRaZy8or5e]

73 AC is great for a caster sure but all I get from 10 RDD levels is essentially 4ac. A PM wizard should be able to get way higher AC as well as being immune to critical hits. How insane is that? Immunity to fire and 4ac or immunity to critical hits and 8ac? I know what I would choose. But PMs have their weaknesses too and I'm not trying to say it's unbalanced. What I'm saying is Peck is one example of a build that you could do in different factions (given not NC).

4 AC and fire immunity is ALL you get? A PM doesn't get all those extra ability points. How much discipline does a PM get? What kind of vulnerabilities do PM's have? All the things that make Peck viable against RDD dragons, make a PM vulnerable, except for AC. But how much does AC count against a fire breathing dragon .

Either way I'm not slipping into the how do you kill an RDD dragon discussion. What I am saying is that using your RDD/Sorc Peck to prove that RDD dragons aren't that powerful is illogical and even counterproductive to your own argument.

"Look I killed my RDD with my RDD! Why can't you guys do it!?!?!" Is just a bad argument.

[burrahobbit]

The way you level NS5 will be out by the time you get him to 40..... lol jk

owie, thats all i am gonna say.....oh, i and i completely agree with everything crazy said..

[ashsagoon]

They never hit me and they never got close enough to breathe fire on me so the AC and the immunity are a moot point.

If I had a lvl 40 non-RDD sorc I'd use him to prove the point but mine is currently only 29

And I was just kidding Burra! You actually level a lot faster than some of our guys who play a lot longer (and spend too much time looking for pvp )

[cRaZy8or5e]

They never hit me and they never got close enough to breathe fire on me so the AC and the immunity are a moot point.

If I had a lvl 40 non-RDD sorc I'd use him to prove the point but mine is currently only 29

And I was just kidding Burra! You actually level a lot faster than some of our guys who play a lot longer (and spend too much time looking for pvp )

The whole discussion is a moot point for the reasons I outlined above.

I'll summarize again:

RDD dragons never play a game of chase with a caster in a wide open area, they know they'll lose
and
RDD's never defend alone so the side galleries are never a factor.

EVEN SO, THE WHOLE POINT OF BURRA'S POST WAS THAT YOU'RE ARGUMENT THAT PECK COULD KILL RDD DRAGONS WAS SILLY, CUZ YOU'RE SAYING YOU KILLED AN RDD WITH YOUR RDD.

[DM_Kim]

Careful how and what we say. DO NOT START FLAMING OR THIS THREAD WILL GET LOCKED DOWN.

[mgrjebbo]

Oh no! Take cover, Crazy is busting out the large grammar.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Oh no! Take cover, Crazy is busting out the large grammar.

*readies arsenal of condescending commentaries and bad puns, muttering mgrjebbo's name over and over*

[MLoki]

Perhaps if Dragons were only able to be buffed like summons. ie stats already maxed out and the 20 dodge bonus used up and +20 claw enhancement. This would moderate the builds and make uber buffed dragons only a step above non buffed dragons. If the "Buffed" stats of a dragon are too good then simply make it so that dragons already have enough "Magical" enhancement to limit how much more then can get.

[diddy33]

Oh no! Take cover, Crazy is busting out the large grammar.

LMAO, that right there made reading all these post worth it.

[arvut]

I really gotta give credit for those long posts that makes this thread really interesting. Keep up the good work with analyzing facts and showing the real truth about things like this

I have little experience from the NS4 dragons, but from what I've made out from those facts given in this thread and on the wiki, RDD dragons sounds like the ultimate pvp dragons, while the druid/shifter dragons seems to be the more pvm type of dragon. AO having them both adds a great deal of flexibility. And since most AO players are focused on powerleveling to 40 so they can pvp and own the world/feel great about that, then we have a logical reason for why the amount of druid dragons is so limited.

About this comparing then, personally I think monks should be nerfed from AO completely, or both RP and balance reasons. But I will leave that discussion to the suggestions forum or another topic in this forum.


And to add to this brainstorming about nerfing/improving the RDD dragons, I think it would be cool to see the RDD dragons that are not pure sorc/bard combined with RDD get a slightly different stats than the ones that are, after all they have other neat features such as classfeats, skills, more apr and so on...
Possibly a sorc rdd (pure version) could get a boost to the breathweapon/statbonuses depending on spellfocus? While the bard rdd could get some kind of dragonsong bonus?

For example, a sorc rdd could get the following bonuses depending on spellfocus;

Code: Select all

Evocation: bonus damage and dc to breath
Conjuration: splitted damage, in two different damagetypes (50% fire and 50% electrical for example, with dual save ofcourse)
Transmutation: Bonus to char sheet stats (including ab, hp, damage and physical attributes)
Necromancy: Draining effect with added save on breath/claws
Divination: Boost to spot, listen, search and 
Illusion: Added ac and concealment

This is just some crazy brainstorming ideas for the devs. I'd like to see further discussion on the subject tho so please tell me what you think and if you can think of any improvements, and please keep negative comments on it at minimum (only constructive criticism is appriciated). And if you moderators think this needs to be splitted up and moved to the suggestions forum then feel free to do so =)



PS. I think some of those posts that are either jokes or flames should be instantly removed to keep this thread clean and ontopic. Locking it would be sad.

And btw Elda/Cahaal, if you didn't know about the quote function then I suggest you check it out, its pretty neat

[OpalimTeGolim]

I liked your posts ashsagoon so much that I made an acc on the board to reply! Reminded me of something a friend of mine, a lawyer (civil law), said when we talked about lawyer's work. He said law is all about persuasion. People meet, talk, establish facts (persuasion part) and reach an agreement based on them. When I disagreed, he told me that by the end of our discussion I will realize that everything he is telling me is a fact.

I hope you got my point there, and I like how you play this "establishing the facts" game. But you missed few facts and you missed to put the things into right context. As RDD, you get +2 CON (extra 40 hp), +2 CHA (extra spells or ability to start your buld with 17 CHR, not 19, which is like 5 ability points difference) and +2 INT (so you can start with INT 12 or 14 and you'll shave nuf skill pts). I would say that is what makes the difference and allows you to build much stronger sorc/monk/RDD in AO than in other factions.

Now for the context, I think it's ironic that the best sorcs are available in AO, while MA, which are supposed to be magic inclined, has the worst ones probably. By best I mean sorcs with highest ac, hp and most spell slots (you can add some disc for lvl 9 bigbys too). In MA you can't get high enough ac (no monks allowed). AO beats SL because as AO you can choose Githzerai (that race is +6 AC for sorc/monk combo, not available in SL since SL is evil only) and if you get 10 RDD classes you get another +4 AC. If I can get non Gith, non RDD wiz/monk with no bard song to hit ac 70, then I am sure you can get sorc with ac over 80 in AO easily. My guess is that PwnD either has such mage already and are not showing it often or that you are not even attempting to make it since you don't need such high ac atm, and it's always good to have some backup plan in case EMA or something else gets nerfed (I apologize if I'm wrong). RK can for the most part do almost everything SL can.

Ah, also I will point out here that the problem IS NOT Epic Mage Armor, and lowering it wouldn't fix the problem coz you'd still have sorcs in AO that are untouchable to bigby and most melee attackers, while SL wizards would be hurt and it would ruin what's left of MA wizards because their AC is in the toilet already (60ies at best). Problem is in the combination of classes/races. And AO's mix is the best. This is all under assumption that the problem of having high ac wiz is a real one. They stil can be hit by ice storms and so far I haven't seen any playing TC Githzerai druid/monk/SD ice storm spammer. Hmm.. I wonder if that would work..

Btw. is Peck Githzerai? Coz I'd trade keen senses for +6 ac for keen senses and I wouldn't call it poor choice

So anyway, those are also the facts.

[Amoenotep]

Oh no! Take cover, Crazy is busting out the large grammar.

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