Linux, my dragon sux now, fix it!

[mgrjebbo]

LMAO!

Your on Candid Camera......

[Korr]

Ooooh I like the cha fear aura for the dragon, I would have the most frightening RDD around!!!

[Lokey]

Balance is tough. 4 dex change makes a character unplayable yet a 6 ac exploit (tenuous exploit, didn't bother doing anything about it at the time) is just fine I had to make sure it wasn't a full monk ac exploit, i.e. a 15-20 ac one.

cRaZy8or5e, if it were that simple, we'd have lots more things done and tons of content in that had to be dropped because it didn't work as advertised (I really had wanted to do more and multiple meta-magics for example and spent a ton of time working on it, but couldn't clear the last few bugs).

In general, there's several problems we run into:
- Script/game stuff not working as advertised period (there's a bunch of these, unfortunately some pretty cool Effect*() functions for example).
- Script/game stuff that works haphazardly, bizarrely or not at all when the game engine is stressed due to module size, number of concurrent players, position of Venus, etc... There are many of these and vary due to a depressing number of variables.
- Fixing bugs gets tedious for the above reasons. I still can't crash polymorph single player no matter what I do, but do much less strenuous things multiplayer and boom (i.e. on death when items are removed I can run loops into the thousands of instructions adding or removing item properties). So it was try a bunch of things until you can die polymorphed without crashing the server...that took a while and was annoying and the result really limited the amount of cool things we could do with it.
- Not to mention the number of things that were well tested under a different patch version but are buggier under 1.69. Or totally different in 1.69 (we're still finding these).
- Then there's other things like me considering something stupid--no player's going to go through this amount of BS for a small gain... At least it isn't a crash = benefit bug. You'll notice when one of those gets found.

[Tru3Fals3]

well ive been doing some testing with my own rdd dragon, the build is 8 fighter, 2 bard, 30 rdd.

it has stunning fist (fun but mostly unused), epic dr 3 & blinding speed.
it required 3 +2 books to work, wis, dex and con.

AC
pre nerf fully buffed the ac was around 84 (im talking 40 bard & cleric, best gear available on the mod), so 94 with improved expertise.
post nerf it hits a max of 76 fully buffed, so 86 in improved expertise.

AB
ab is unchanged from what i can tell, no matter what the cha sheet says, the ab is always 7 higher in the log.
the ab is 75 fully buffed (again 40 bard and cleric).
its possible to get 3 more ab from the build as i was unaware that weapon focus unarmed strike and epic weapon focus unarmed strike actually apply to your shifted form (not sure if they are supposed to or not).
so the max possible ab for the dragon fully buffed (40 bard & cleric) is a very respectable 78.

so basically this can lead to an fully support caster buffed AB/AC of 78/76 or 68/86 which is good, not brilliant, but certainly not average (for ex. my wm can achieve 81ab/76ac using a single dex +2 book). the dmg however is quite good, mostly hitting for 50+ on mobs not immune to fire and 30ish on mobs immune to fire), it has a lot of hp (1096 iirc) so it can stick around & the dr staves off a fair bit of the dmg.

SAVES
i didnt invest in any save feats in this build, fort is unecessary, the rdd dragon has a great fort save, adding to the pre epic rdd/fighter strong fort save. will is slightly less then fort but still excellent considering no feats invested. reflex is terrible (would def invest in feats on a rebuild), just over 30 pre nerf and now well under 30 post nerf (self buffed), this basically makes its unviable in pvp against most caster builds at least imho. even if i were to invest in 3 reflex save feats in a rebuild it would still only be low mid 30s which i personally consider to be terrible (i dont like having a save below 35, but thats just me) considerig the hefty investment in dex and feats but hey, cant have everything right.

Overall i believe i lost somewhere between 6-8ac from these nerfs, not all of it dex, it appears to have lost dodge ac form somewhere too, as previously i would hit my dodge cap with bard song & 5-5-5 boots and my blinding speed wouldnt add ac, post nerf with the same gear my blinding does add ac so im assuming dodge ac was lost somewhere.


OVERALL OPINION.
pre nerf
i did enjoy playing this build, it did seem overpowered i will admit but hey, it sucked complete a** the whole time i was lvling and i can only shift once a rest now im forty and once i die, im completely useless even if raised, its a one trick pony. i could kill the white lord, draco, kultach, radiant & vritru with just fafnir and a 40 bard, i could also do all the non boss maps in celestia and the abyss with those two if i was carefull and carried the right scrolls on my bard. in pvp it was also really effective if i had support, even one on one i could kill a lot of builds, although i died a lot too, it wasnt as if i steamrolled the competition. i had already started an improved version using barb instead of fighter, dropping the stun fist, picking up reflex save feats and more epic cold resists, adding the unarmed weapon focuses for some juicy ab & also getting uncanny dodge.
post nerf
i dont enjoy the build as much obviously, taking a decent hit in ac is costing me a lot more heal pots LOL, but im finding that its still fairly good against monsters, the drop in reflex has been very noticable, grease will kill him just about everytime now, he looks very comical lying on the floor while 3-4 beat him to death. i can still take radiant, kultach and vritru with fafnir and one of my bards, have yet to retry the white lord and draco. pvp wise post nerf i wont even take him into a fight with any caster, i doubt i will use him at all in pvp anymore, the drop in ac made him much more vunerable to bards, fighters, weapon masters (even pre nerf my wm could kill my dragon one on one) & fleetfooted archers, about the only thing he really destroys is sds (126 spot maxed out and immune to sneak attacks). ive pretty much abandoned the rebuild, this is after ive already invested an int +2 into it, its just not worth the time and effort to build and lvl imho for something that really isnt that impressive and is just a one trick pony.

OK, so this is just my opinions and experience with the build, none of it is meant as complaint, merely my own personal observations from playing the dragon both pre and post nerf, i can add more info as i try more areas with it post nerf, havent done much yet cause i really dont feeling like playing much these days, i just seem to log on and fiddle with the junk ive collected on my mules heh.

not sure if this helps, if its what you wanted to know or if anyone even cares......

[rocketkai]

True, I think the ab boost from weapon focus and epic weapon focus: unarmed only appears on the char sheet, but they don't apply actually in the battle log.

[Amoenotep]

thanks true for actually taking the time to make a good analysis between what you had and what you have....its good to get real feedback sometimes

[burrahobbit]

After looking at Tru's excellent analysis, i would nerf them again. What are we low life northeners suposed to do against that except apply the salt and pepper and BBQ sauce to ourselves b4 they show up?

I understand that you will say i am complaining and whine'n, and all that, and your right, i am. Seriously though, what do we do about a 68 ab 86 ac dragon with a stupid high fear aura, flame breath, and 1000 hp's? With no direct dmg mages we have a hard enough time dealing with any high ac toon.

My solution: Give NC a token that gives 20 ab and 20 ac bonus and adds 35 to all saves. No? oh well 8(

*not meant to be taken too seriously so please dont*

[Eldaquen]

Wow...all I can say after reading this is WOW. I knew RDD red dragon was ubber...but did not realize was that UBBER. I would like to add some feedback...but still in shock as to what has been posted about pre and even post nerf stats of RDD dragon.

I know what it is like to have a build you spent so long to build, enjoy to play only to be rendered a shadow of its former self, but seriously...RDD was capable of what was reported in this thread.

*deep sigh*

Ok as far as the monk ac carrying over to dragon shape, I don't think anyone knew was bug until after RDD dragon was created and people had a chance to level up a build because previously available shifter and druid dragon builds were and are not allowed to have monk class on NS4. Non-dragon shifters the monk ac was removed to balance out the build. I can understand that, at the time, it may not have necessary to look at or modify dragonshape for monk ac; since, due to server rules, those that could become dragon were not allowed to have monk class in the build. The stated intent was for no form to have monk AC so its removal should not be any surprise. Bug found bug fixed...moving on.

Dragonshape was designed with a druid and/or druid/shifter base. When RDD was given dragonshape, the RDD class combinations available with dragonshape would require balancing. This was inevitable.

I will say am impressed with the choice to create different dragon skins for the different dragon builds. Was a novel and intereting solution to a balancing issue involving distinct builds that are very different.

[VagaStorm]

My solution: Give NC a token that gives 20 ab and 20 ac bonus and adds 35 to all saves. No? oh well 8(

I think CoT is what your looking for, you will find it under classes when lvling up in NC

[Eldaquen]

Changed my mind not posting this here.

[Shhhhhhh]

Changed my mind not posting this here.

so where are you posting it?

[burrahobbit]

My solution: Give NC a token that gives 20 ab and 20 ac bonus and adds 35 to all saves. No? oh well 8(

I think CoT is what your looking for, you will find it under classes when lvling up in NC

No CoT ever conceived can stand toe to toe with a RDD dragon and come even close to winning

[Shhhhhhh]

to be fair, most numbers posted here are with full buffs, usually some dedicated other character is made to buff the dragon. For the non dual logging people this is a bit less likely to happen all the time.
And most shifted shapes simply work rather well when buffed, because they use Strenght or dex to get to their 'normal' AB so they have a lot of room to get buffed further before they reach the +20 ab cap.
It's a bit like the dedicated WM vs Pure fighter discussion that was on forums a while ago.
Pure fighter alone is almost always better, but if you get a WM with a pet bard or cleric to walk with him the WM starts to shine.

[frogofpeace]

I won't go as far as burra , because I haven't seen linux's fighting an RDD dragon, but I had folks sending me tells last nite about CoTs being overpowered, and I can tell you tru3's dragon eats my CoT for ... not even lunch - snack? Palate cleanser?

It seems like dragon gets a lot of what CoT gets (DR, high AB), MAYBE not as much damage (although you have to give up something to get CHA high enough to help), lower saves, but gets all the RDD cheese and other nice things as well. How about add some cold vulnerability to those nice hot-blooded critters?

[Sohjin]

RDD dragons seem to be susceptible to Harm. I could just about one vs one them with my cleric / pm build and that was with me driving (I don't often win at pvp). I suspect now they have a slightly lower AC (so she can actually land the killing blow) it would be even more in my favour.

NC have clerics as well I hear.