Summons

[ATI]

1rnd/level is way to low....makes the summon ineffectual. Once again this is a situation where you're only trying to solve for PvP summon problems, and actually TerminalInsanity is only talking about lvl V summons. My summon at lvl 4 does the same thing, web, color spray, no attacking...sorta unfun at time (colorsprays me and im down for a moment)

Now....why should summons be nerfed? They are helpful for casters fighting the scale of hard monsters in the game. Im a druid, my summons help me, but that is the point, my druid has significantly less ability to fight than a regular fighter and so forth.

If you want to solve this problem. Other than Gil and AE who think summons are just to powerful, which I don't agree with, most people are arguing a PvP scenario where the caster hides behind the summon to attack a player. That is the strategy since the core of NwN, nothing new about that. If you want to take out a caster, be smart about it, run past the summon, knock down kill the the mage.
Or, Run called shot to the foot, proceed to beat down mage.
Or, Get a dispel scroll from someone (Hey Team Work!) wham, summon goes away instantly.

I think maybe adding some antimagic stuff for fighters and other non caster classes should be available to counter this stuff. Make the scrolls prohibitivly expensive so that lvl 1's don't have mord's disjunct and so that maybe a few lvl 12-17 chars have the scrolls, making them valuable, and useful. And there is the solution to PvP caster summons by using dispell scrolls.

Remember, this isn't a NO MAGIC server. If you're upset with casters, don't lower the caster standards, bring up the tank standards. There is no rule that tanks shouldn't have some magic, (DM book says it ) Fighters/barbs/rangers, all threee should have some form of ability to start stopping magic later on in levels. Or, Give tanks tank only equipement that is helpful against spell casters. (To make it better, make it a double edged sword, maybe good with elemental ressitances but makes them vulnerable to bludg damage or something like that) And there is an easy counter.

Gil....You're standards of magic would have sorcs at lvl 20 only casting lvl 3 spells....which isn't fun or worth it Nerfing spells to the point where its no fun to play isn't something anyone should do.

Summons that cast color spray are lame in general mianly because it effects you too if you get hit by color spray and the second reason is teh dumb summon keeps using color spray rather than attack. Most monsters can handle color spray at lvl 10 so its not too good to use. I would suggest getting rid of color spray all together on summons just to make those summons more combat effective (they are summons they combat for you, or why would you be summoning them? To have tea? Don't think so )

[dond]

there is magical gear that fighter types can get that can help them, people just aren't bothering to look.

axon mentioned armor that cast shadow shield.

i've seen a 30 weight 1 use/day summon item. (that's clearly for a str build lol)

there's also weapons that have various on hit effects (silence etc)

you're asking for stuff that's already in the mod....

[JesterOI]

1round / level is way too short...
1 turn + 1round/lvl would make more sense, can use extend on that too.

[ATI]

sweet if that stuff is in the game...go get it and stop whining about summons. Get some clerics or something to make you some scrolls of dispell (hopefully those are available to all people not just casters) and blast the mage out of the sky. I don't know about mord items, but if those exist too...mages are screwed. Mords disjunct makes things harsh.


The most horrible thing to do is to make a summon last less time. Why would you do this to a caster? If you summon something it should stay around long enough to be of use. A summon that AT MAX stays for only 1 turn and 40 rounds...thats only 5 turns....... thats a horrible tradeoff knowing that at lvl 40 you get a summon to stick around for only 5 turns. There are better ways to solve summon problems and this isn't it. If you want to beat summons get tactically smart. Travel in groups of people (Hey thats the point of the game, party up ) to fight wandering mages, get other mages to help you out (Surprise! getting a cleric to cast SR on you might jsut help you!) or figure out something to pierce the mage, perhaps simply running up to the mage and beating him senseless before he can do any real damage ( did someone say Improved knockdown)? There are myriad tactics (and at worse you can always turn invisible with a potion and run off, even if the mage can see you, the summon probably can't) that are usefull against mages. Some of them make you win, others invovle retreat. At either rate don't hash casters because their summons are good, they are supposed to be good. Give the tanks equally accessible stuff to slap mages around. (Don't forget dispell doesn't override spell mantle so smart casters will have spell mantle to soak dispells, thus creating a balance to my suggested "Dispell scrolls for everyone idea") Also don't neglect things like silence. Find items with this, keep them, pull them out against a caster, and wham....no spells with verbal components.


we are tyring to solve a problem and we arne't observing the greater problem. The greater problem isn't summons being overpowered. Its tanks not fully figuring out (or not being provided with) enough options in which to balance the casters.

Im a staunch advocate against nerfing things further. From what i've seen things are already nerfed badly for tanks. Ease up on the nerfing things for casters and i think tanks will complain less.

Also I still think giving people items that are double edged (eliminating the need for an ILR) like an armor that adds 10 to elemental res but +10 to physical damage would be perfect to solve this problem. The item has a considerable defect but the item also makes it easier to fight a mage (who most likely will be using elemental damages). Or items with death ward, items with immunity to harm but make it so that if you heal you get dealt damage (would be an awesome check to a very useful ability).

Again, this problem gets solved with item spreads solving for equilibrium. There are two sides to the coin, my way involves decreasing nerfs, or creating catch 22 items to help balance out the rift between casters and tanks.

The other way is to continue to nerf things for casters. If you nerf everythign to the point were all the classes are lame, no one wants to play. Already rangers are pretty harsh classes to play, fighters barbs are hard to level. Casters have an easy advantage to lvl. Making the casters just as hard promotes hard-core low magic rules, but that is inconsistent with an action oriented game style. Also nerfing everyone means eventually nerfing the accessible spell levels of casters (meaning casters only get lvl 3-4 spells, to keep true to the low magic themes that nerfing seems to invoke).

nerfing isn't our solution, its a bad way at trying to make equilibrium. Even teh DM guide argues that using items can break or make the balance of characters in a game. In most cases the DM and most other rule sets argue that messing with the core of the game, like the summon time limit, is not fun and makes players feel punished.

Also Lets remember, DnD is based on a system of rewards. The better you do the more rewards you get. Bad DM's and devs make you gruel through long hard slogs and reward you with....DING one extra round on your summon spells, or a plain longsword, or a wooden stick of "the DM hates the player". The better you get the better your rewards. If you play the game and there is no incentive to continue to get better rewards, then your defeating the purpose of playing the game. Thus: As players get better they should expect to get cooler things, better summons, better magic items, and those items, as you get higher in level, should CONSIDERABLY differ from each other. If we have a lvl 1 char cast a summon (under the 1turn and 1round/lvl model) then that summon lasts 1 turn and 1 round. At lvl 20 that summon lasts 3 turns. That isn't considerably greater...and lvl 20 is supposed to be a rockin character (not NS3 rocking, but distinguishingly a force to reckon with....think of axon)

-As a side note

This argument applies to the arrows in NS4. 1d6 at lvl 5 to 1d8 at lvl 9 isn't a good damage increase. The devs still need to fix that little problem or rangers will continue to be passed over as a class to play. I know very few rangers past lvl 8 which is sad. This is a perfect example of nerfed items preventing the full enjoyment of the game.

In closing:

Don't nerf, make things more balanced through increasing item spreads, or by using ingenuity. simple as that. Have a fun night everyone

edit:

this post still needs to be talked about so......*vrrump*

[ATI]

edit:

this post still needs to be talked about so......*vrrump*

[TastyTreat]

I must say that I do agree with ATI in that too much nerfing will in the long run make everyone unhappy. There are other ways of balancing things out and ATI touched upon a couple of them. Reducing the duration of a summon is just too drastic of a change, if anything should be changed it should be the summons themselves.

As far as arrows are concerned some variation wouldn't hurt. Maybe having some arrows with minimal elemental dmg drop in certain areas that are accessable to lower levels. This could at least somewhat make up for the pure piercing dmg that arrows do atm.

[JesterOI]

It would be nice to see damage rise linearily with levels.
1-4 you get +1d4 weapons
5-8 you get +2d4 weapons
9-12 you get +3d4 weapons
13-16 you get +4d4 weapons

Would definitely help weapon users out in a better way than a measily +2 to max damage.

[Thanos]

It would be nice to see damage rise linearily with levels.
1-4 you get +1d4 weapons
5-8 you get +2d4 weapons
9-12 you get +3d4 weapons
13-16 you get +4d4 weapons

Would definitely help weapon users out in a better way than a measily +2 to max damage.

There is already a whole line of +3 weapons and that all have this in common and can be used at level 16. A lot better than 4d4 extra damage.

+3
3d6 extra damage various types
Keen
2d6 extra crit damage

and then there is even upgrades for those that have a on hit
like fear and stuff.

[JesterOI]

Well hurray! then!
I haven't seen them yet, but I'll keep an eye out.

[ATI]

see that is my inspiration. The higher lvl stuff is awesome that is cool. but still

If you nerf my summon spells....I'll....I'll.... I'll still play