Shadow Dancer Nerf?

[Daltian]

Tell me what a hips rogue can kill that a mage of his lvl can't kill 3 times faster?

[Spooky]

Before you ask these things take in note that its not ns3 where ppl lvl up to lvl 20 in a day...u cant imagine how hard it is to make a rogue and lvl it up,those playing them instead of some "easier" classes shouldnt be left without not even a help.By what you are saying a person must reach almost lvl 17 to get HiPS (7 lvl minimum of a class with tumble,hide,MS as class skills b4 going SD).That means that until they reach lvl 17 they will just be the dependant sneak attack rogues who will need someone to distract a monster in order for them to dmg while in that lvl almost everyone can kill anything and so until the rogue gets the chance to hit the monster it will be already dead so it will still be a worthless rogue.Changing SD lvls required for HiPS is plain stupid while casters are far more overpowered in this game.and anyway,whats the problem with rogues?Besides,a lvl 17 DD already has the dmg reduction,a lvl 17 Fighter/WM already has its abilities,a lvl 17 PM definately got its Crit immunity..see that rogues need lvl 7 to get their SD 1st lvl class.PM's only 3 lvls,WM's 6 (fighter class) etc..that would make SD the last choice

[Æ]

Most rogues have high dex so they can use a bow at low levels and never get hit by anything if they know how to use an archer (not to mention corner sneaking left and right)... i've never had any trouble starting off a dexer, even on "hardcore" servers like darksun online... especially since they have high AC right out of the box, in their underwear

It's all about using your skills properly... it's not hard at all to corner sneak, you can do it behind the smallest of things (rocks, trees, furniture) and you CAN sneak attack with a bow if you need to keep distance

not that i'm arguing to nerf HiPS, personally I think there's nothing wrong with it (if you're fast enough, a fighter [for instance] can go blow for blow with a sneaker, landing an attack on him every time he sneak attacks him... and win... although that same fighter is screwed if the rogue is sneek-sniping with a bow)

[Chimaira]

Before you ask these things take in note that its not ns3 where ppl lvl up to lvl 20 in a day...u cant imagine how hard it is to make a rogue and lvl it up,those playing them instead of some "easier" classes shouldnt be left without not even a help.By what you are saying a person must reach almost lvl 17 to get HiPS (7 lvl minimum of a class with tumble,hide,MS as class skills b4 going SD).That means that until they reach lvl 17 they will just be the dependant sneak attack rogues who will need someone to distract a monster in order for them to dmg while in that lvl almost everyone can kill anything and so until the rogue gets the chance to hit the monster it will be already dead so it will still be a worthless rogue.Changing SD lvls required for HiPS is plain stupid while casters are far more overpowered in this game.and anyway,whats the problem with rogues?Besides,a lvl 17 DD already has the dmg reduction,a lvl 17 Fighter/WM already has its abilities,a lvl 17 PM definately got its Crit immunity..see that rogues need lvl 7 to get their SD 1st lvl class.PM's only 3 lvls,WM's 6 (fighter class) etc..that would make SD the last choice

Whats the problem with rogues? If Im a lvl 17 PM/caster, heck i wouldnt even have the PM lvls yet. Why not? Because if Im a lvl 7 sorc/10 PM, I cant even use lvl 4 spells. I would only dare to take PM levels after lvl 18, and if Im a fighter based PM, I wouldnt dare going PM before lvl 21...the loss of BAB just weakens you too much in the long run. Would I take a WM or DD lvl fast? Yea of course, as fast as possible, but when does my WM class start to gain advantages which I just got 4 feats I never use for? At lvl 5 is the first lot of abilities, +1 AB, Threat range increase. An SD IMMEDIATLY gains the ability over rogues at lvl 1, Im not saying it simply MUST be lvl 10, I just say that would seem reasonable TO ME, I did not say it was the only reason to make sneaking classes with 1 SD lvl (which is the problem) less overused and that those who disagree should die the most horrible death. It can be lvl 5 aswell, even tho IN MY OPPINION (Do not ignore the words in caps) that would be too soon for such a powerfull ability.

[Thanos]

NS4 is supposed to be group oriented. All classes should have a harder time to solo. A rogue by nature should be a group class, same with mages and same with fighters. I am playing a fighter now and it is actually easier to level solo then my mage. I can go 1/2 hour to an hour before I have to rest.

[Thanos]

Tell me what a hips rogue can kill that a mage of his lvl can't kill 3 times faster?

Speed is not the issue. Its risk and reward. Killing a mob 10 levels higher than you should be very risky. With hips there is no risk. You sit back and peck away at the mob untill it dies and most times never even get hit. The computer AI isn't set up for HIPS.

If any class can solo a mob 10+ levels higher(without exploiting pathing or terrain) with no risk it should be looked at and see how it can be weakened.

There are plenty of nerfs coming the mages way.

[ColonelPanic]

Since your limited to one Prc, no-one should be complaining over HiPs, because if you really want have SD then your not going to have Assasin as well or any of the other unique PrC's. Thats the cost of going SD, no Palemaster, no CoT, no RDD, no Assasin. They people complaining about HiPs have some other PrC and they dont want to worry about other SD's, and/or are just pissed they cant take one lvl of SD as well.
If you want to limit access to SD more, then make it a unique PrC to some faction that doesnt have one, like Last Alliance.
I think the single PrC requirement makes SD a tough choice, unless you planned on taking it, one lvl or not, all along.

[Spooky]

colonel got a point too however LA is totally unsuitable for SD's when it comes to "RP" but what you said about other classes it 100% right...SD rogues loose any chance of getting death attack from assasin class,immunity by PM etc by gaining HiPS and a summon which is still under contsruction,which makes it a hard choice if you want my opinion..
Last thing is something i noticed in MA server lots of ppl already taken PM lvls (4,5,8 ) and are actually lvling up really fast..that can be done with a bard..a fighter too its not that bad coz lots of ppl never are patient enough till lvl 20 to gain their abilities..their life is harder by picking PM early but at least they will be stronger early too:D,just as rogues with SD

[Qui]

Maybe Im missing something but what we are tlkaing about is a PRESTIGE class with 1 COUNT IT 1 usefull feat presently. the summon is crap, shadow daze is 'eh' and shadow evade isnt till lvl 10. every other PrC gets multiple worth while feats. So Basically you are whining about it being to easy to get a single Feat, which in itself is a bit ridiculous since you can counter it by 1) playing a mage and casting true seeing, 2) putting points into spot and listen, 3) get gear with bonuses to spot and listen, 4) get mages ot make you true seeing pots (i assume this can be done, nmot sure though)...

This entire thread is a complaint about a single feat that can be countered with a little work. BTW, i apologize if it hurts your feelings that a class is capable of doing what it is meant to do.

[dond]

yes, and that 1 useful feat starts at lvl 1, so you don't need the rest of the class. the ai also can't handle when you keep doing HiPS fast, the mob just stands there taking sneak attack damage. you're not risking anything.

summon shadow is being worked on, they're redoing all summons.

as for shadow daze and shadow evade, what's the feedback on its effectiveness in ns4? has anyone even taken more than 1 SD level?

[Qui]

I have 4 lvls, you need 3 to get the summon, shadow daze mebbe needs to somehow be harder to resist (increase the DC?) also.. I think the summon would be great if it were based on the charachters total levels not just the lvls in SD. And i agree that if you have such a problem with it take SD for the HiPS yrouself instead of taking WM for all those bonuses or instead of taking PM for the immunes... Its all equivalent, all PrCs get epxloited..

WHINING PRIVALIGES!!!! REVOKED

[Dallas17]

HiPS is far too powerful for any PvP mod, look at all the great PvP arena servers and it has been banned, there's no fixing it. just banned, why? because it's far too exploitive. you can have 500 listen and spot and i will still kill you with my SD, even if my MS/Hide is only 30, why? because i know how to use SD to it's full advantage, and what is that? the 6 second delay. it takes 6 seconds from when the rogue hits hide that a person in detect mode may find them, this is more than enough time to get in another sneak, and another, and another, and another. get some good AB going, crippling strike, and you've got the most deadly build there is. the ONLY counter to a build like this would be ice storms, confusion, wail, implosion, etc.. basically AoE spells that arn't reflex. however not every class gets these, and god help you once sombody figures out that you can combine cleric and rogue with SD for things such as death ward and clarity. SD is just too much of an exploitive class to be allowed and should be straight out banned, that simple. HiPS is not meant for PvP, and since it cannot be changed (it's hardcoded to the best of my knowledge) you must simply ban it. and frankly i think we're missing very little if we ban it, rogues can still hide and sneak, the SD is a 1 trick pony, banning it doesn't really mean anything is lost except ofcourse HiPS.sd

[Thanos]

Its refreashing to finally find someone else who wants to do whats best for the mod. The way it is now evey class that can will take 1 level of SD is going to take it. Just like almost every sorc is going to be a sorc with 1 level of paladin.

[Chimaira]

HiPS is far too powerful for any PvP mod, look at all the great PvP arena servers and it has been banned, there's no fixing it. just banned, why? because it's far too exploitive. you can have 500 listen and spot and i will still kill you with my SD, even if my MS/Hide is only 30, why? because i know how to use SD to it's full advantage, and what is that? the 6 second delay. it takes 6 seconds from when the rogue hits hide that a person in detect mode may find them, this is more than enough time to get in another sneak, and another, and another, and another. get some good AB going, crippling strike, and you've got the most deadly build there is. the ONLY counter to a build like this would be ice storms, confusion, wail, implosion, etc.. basically AoE spells that arn't reflex. however not every class gets these, and god help you once sombody figures out that you can combine cleric and rogue with SD for things such as death ward and clarity. SD is just too much of an exploitive class to be allowed and should be straight out banned, that simple. HiPS is not meant for PvP, and since it cannot be changed (it's hardcoded to the best of my knowledge) you must simply ban it. and frankly i think we're missing very little if we ban it, rogues can still hide and sneak, the SD is a 1 trick pony, banning it doesn't really mean anything is lost except ofcourse HiPS.sd

I agree with all except the banning of SD.
It is not a 1 trick pony, read the post I made earlier saying how an SD can be used except by exploiting HiPS.
Just banning HiPS is an idea tho, but is it possible?

[dond]

Its refreashing to finally find someone else who wants to do whats best for the mod. The way it is now evey class that can will take 1 level of SD is going to take it. Just like almost every sorc is going to be a sorc with 1 level of paladin.

in ns3, there was the sorc/pally/bg build lol.......not like svs mattered in that mod heh