Low Magic DOES NOT mean no magic

[dond]

yea, the discussion so far has been fighter vs caster, not group vs group and hence faction vs faction.

so anyone do any group vs group pvping?

balancing for 1 on 1 won't be the answer in this mod methinks.


edit:

and having dispel rods fighter usuable won't do anything. (or at least shouldn't). they apparently fixed dispel, and fighters have no caster lvls.

[Revenge]

*points to the rest restriction thread in this forum*

Get rid of the evoc spammers and all your worries will be gone. Caster's aren't meant to be gods, they are meant to turn other tanks gods with mass buffage.

[JesterOI]

Remove damage resist and soak from mage items. Damage immunity is ok though.

[ATI]

Actually the discussion was originally about the Low magic content vs. the no magic content that seems to happen to fighter weapons. See, the problem Mumoo, me, carr, and some others see on this server is that there are no magical enchantments on weapons in the early mid game. Mainly we are trying to figure out wether this server is low magic, because if it is...then shouldnt casters have their total spell levels nerfed to maybe spell lvl 3 to make things go consistently with the low magic lvl theme. Since that isn't going to fly (obviously) then we need to give fighters more ability to fend against casters (this is probably where people got teh 1v1 fighting theme on this forum)

You can read my previous posts, and right now the server seems to favor casters, whereas wider magical spread on items at lower levels would help to equal out the player levels.


As for partying....the people on TC seem to party fine with each other, we also rally to causes...however we can't seem to lvl like the rest of teh other servers :p (not a real problem)

Parties seem to be what the server is tooled towards (since most people say party tactics eliminate a lot of the problems of balance) however, my argument to this is that the server shouldn't force players to join parties. The lone wolf players should be allowed to have just as much fun as those who love to party up with others. I like party aspect, it allows me to RP, and also I get to know my crew like Carr, Throst, Gai, Gil, and Mumoo, and don't forget Tasty Treat! THe party aspect here, and RP aspect in NS4 are tremendous.

however, the problem of individual lone wolfs vs parties isn't one that will ever be solved via items (without lots of upset by the public) The problem is the players themselves which no one can fix. There's always the "I kixorz! you nixerz!" people out there. Theres also the people that insist on consistent RP to the death. Neither are fun to be around, and neither have a solution.

However, I agree that parties are the solution to alot of these item problems, but that causes a trade-off in something more valuable to players, EXP. Most of my problems with my items are solved by working with my friends mentioned above, however.... the trade-off in EXP is sometimes unbearable. When you go from getting 20 exp a kill to 13...you start to feel it hurt. Perhaps changed synergy tactics exp to encourage team play. I would go so far as to say the best way to encourage team play (and eliminate these problems) would be to give more exp (through synergy tactics) to parties of 3 or more. Read the posts, the main complaint about mass parties is the experience loss, which is a huge block to forming a party. If you make an incentive to play in a party, the people will do it. Its not that people hate partying its that they like experience more. Give them a positive net-benefit for working in a party, and you'll see more parties. I guarantee it!

[Alexiagold]

Mainly we are trying to figure out wether this server is low magic,

If that's the case ATI why have you been ignoring my posts about how uber the weapons get in NS4?

[Agent Shiny]

hey just remember

tactics rule =D

u just dont go crashing yourself into a mage or another fighter...
well unless you're a barbarian ayeesh hehe.

[Chimaira]

Actually the discussion was originally about the Low magic content vs. the no magic content that seems to happen to fighter weapons. See, the problem Mumoo, me, carr, and some others see on this server is that there are no magical enchantments on weapons in the early mid game. Mainly we are trying to figure out wether this server is low magic, because if it is...then shouldnt casters have their total spell levels nerfed to maybe spell lvl 3 to make things go consistently with the low magic lvl theme. Since that isn't going to fly (obviously) then we need to give fighters more ability to fend against casters (this is probably where people got teh 1v1 fighting theme on this forum)

You can read my previous posts, and right now the server seems to favor casters, whereas wider magical spread on items at lower levels would help to equal out the player levels.


As for partying....the people on TC seem to party fine with each other, we also rally to causes...however we can't seem to lvl like the rest of teh other servers :p (not a real problem)

Parties seem to be what the server is tooled towards (since most people say party tactics eliminate a lot of the problems of balance) however, my argument to this is that the server shouldn't force players to join parties. The lone wolf players should be allowed to have just as much fun as those who love to party up with others. I like party aspect, it allows me to RP, and also I get to know my crew like Carr, Throst, Gai, Gil, and Mumoo, and don't forget Tasty Treat! THe party aspect here, and RP aspect in NS4 are tremendous.

however, the problem of individual lone wolfs vs parties isn't one that will ever be solved via items (without lots of upset by the public) The problem is the players themselves which no one can fix. There's always the "I kixorz! you nixerz!" people out there. Theres also the people that insist on consistent RP to the death. Neither are fun to be around, and neither have a solution.

However, I agree that parties are the solution to alot of these item problems, but that causes a trade-off in something more valuable to players, EXP. Most of my problems with my items are solved by working with my friends mentioned above, however.... the trade-off in EXP is sometimes unbearable. When you go from getting 20 exp a kill to 13...you start to feel it hurt. Perhaps changed synergy tactics exp to encourage team play. I would go so far as to say the best way to encourage team play (and eliminate these problems) would be to give more exp (through synergy tactics) to parties of 3 or more. Read the posts, the main complaint about mass parties is the experience loss, which is a huge block to forming a party. If you make an incentive to play in a party, the people will do it. Its not that people hate partying its that they like experience more. Give them a positive net-benefit for working in a party, and you'll see more parties. I guarantee it!

NS 4 aint low magic.
They were just preparing people for the worst, since from what we were used to in NS4...

A plain crafted weapon has 1d4 bonus damage I believe, and 1d4 massive critical damage, thats alot, esspecially for a level 3 fighter(not sure if you can use it at level 3 now, think so). The problem doesnt lie with the weapons, like alexia said, those are actually rather powerfull.
The problem lies with the other items then weapons, mainly the shields, amulets and armors. Theres no higher then +3 AC bonus on anything except on boots, theres the problem. A mage relies on spells(well feats later on actually) to raise AC, a fighter relies on items, all the armors and shields I found have something like +3 AC, 25% piercing immunity, 25% electrical immunity, 10/- piercing resist. The weapons that are at the same level of those items (level 16 requirement) have like 2d6 Bludgeoning damage, 1d6 fire damage, 2d6 massive criticals, and keen. 2d6 damage is 2-12 in case some dont know, 45% immunity and 10 resistance already absorbs all of that if you dont count in the base weapon damage and strength damage, the elemental damage is all that gets through, which is pretty damn stupid to say the least. This doesnt mean fighters will beat a caster 1v1, but this is exactly what ruins PvP, since basicly there will be only 1 type of fighter...well judging from the items they will probably be Cleric/fighter/weapon masters...Anyway these will just pick devastating critical and totally ignore damage, since there arent alot of saves on items, the only class that will come close to being able to save a few times will be a sorcerer with a paladin level. You can ban death magic, ban devastating critical, ban hold spells, but for the sake of gameplay, its better to just put some bloody saves on items, and remove resists and immunities, since they really dont belong in a PvP PW.

And Bariagan, the ONLY death spell that requires a touch attack is slay living, no others require a melee OR ranged touch attack.

This is also not about party vs no party.
Any mage or cleric can solo without trouble, any fighter can solo with alot of trouble. Its basicly just class favoring, since mages and clerics have a much easier time leveling(bards aswell, wouldyoubelieveit) then fighters.
While they are also much stronger in PvP, and the items are only making it worse. Its fine if casters are stronger then fighters, but its just bad to give them items that make them dominate any fighter in any situation should the caster know what hes doing.

I mean...Im playing a sorc now, for beta testing purposes:P (hey I already found 1 bug)
Anyway I was leveling with my celestial teddy bear and a hostile party showed up(3 fighters btw, 1 challenging and 2 moderates I believe) and attacked the monsters I was fighting, aswell as the poor bear. So I decided to flip a finger and casted Phantasmal Killer on 1 of them, and ordered my bear to attack them. Well he rolled something like an 18 and a 16, and still fell over dead, the other 2 couldnt hit the bear and he basicly wiped them out on his own, I had only a few invisibility left and that Phantasmal killer I casted was the only I had left, so I wasnt planning on sticking around much longer...didnt have to run after all.

[ATI]

Alexiagold, if items get really cool in the end that is awesome. And that means low magic doesn't apply at the end of the tunnel. But now the topic has moved to how to get people to play together. It seems pretty clear that grouping with a party is a better way of ensuring progress in the early through mid game. So the question then becomes how do we force people to play together in parties.

Like I said, the best is to make synergy tactics makes players better.

[Alexiagold]

Don't ever force people to play together. That's incredibly lame. I've player DAoC, as a Hib, and after level 20 or so if you can't get a group you are stuck. Sometimes I spent 6 hours playing, the whole time trying to find a group, because solo play was prohibtive. Most people who play don't have time to, 1 log in, 2 locate a group to play with (likely a 10 minute deal from what I've seen), 3 travel there (another 10 minutes).

45% immunity and 10 resistance already absorbs all of that if you dont count in the base weapon damage and strength damage, the elemental damage is all that gets through, which is pretty damn stupid to say the least.

Ok so they are wearing armor with 10 slash, 50% slash immunity, Use a bludge or pierce weapon, tada, they have 0 resists and 0% immunity. DUH. Learn to try new tactics or new weapons. If you think this gimps fighters, then you need to learn why a fighter gets 1 feat every 1.5 levels. Its so a fighter can get weapon spec in a bludge, pierce, and slash weapon. As has been said so many times, change your tactics, you one trick pony won't ever make it in NS4. And remeber, most fighters take slash weapons, becuase on paper they do more damage, so most smart players (including wizards) will have all their gear set up to block slash damage. Heck I've yet to duel with anyone who did't have slash armor on. Makes me glad I went WM in Warhammer!!! Suck it mages, eat my x4 crit from a bludge weapon!!!

[Thanos]

I have been finding blunt weapons with keen on them.

I found this weapon last night

Amazon Might
Heavy Flail
+3
Keen
+2d6 Blunt damage
+1d6 fire
+2d6 fire vs undead
massive crits 2d6

Pretty bad [censored] weapon if you ask me

[Æ]

I've usually switched armor and shield as I see the enemy approaching... doesn't matter what kind of weapon it is, i have 3 armors and 3 shields to defend against it all, except elemental damage........ and i agree, that's lame (crits get through pretty well though so --shrug-- whatever)

[Alexiagold]

I've usually switched armor and shield as I see the enemy approaching... doesn't matter what kind of weapon it is, i have 3 armors and 3 shields to defend against it all, except elemental damage........ and i agree, that's lame (crits get through pretty well though so --shrug-- whatever)

Good, that's playing smart. However you'll never get above a shield blocking the damage type. Because they can switch to a weapon your armor doesn't work on, and you can't change armor in a fight. Which once again is why mages get owned a lot fast/easier in melee than a fighter does, as it should be.

[Æ]

actually it's easy to change armor in a fight, just need to take a few steps away... spring attack is useful for this }: )

[Alexiagold]

actually it's easy to change armor in a fight, just need to take a few steps away... spring attack is useful for this }: )

No, you have to wait till the game would otherwise let you rest, ie, 30 seconds from the last time you were attacked, any fighter worth his beans will shoot you with arrows as you flee, like a coward.

[Keish14]

Well, I've heard alot of people telling about all the great stuff that fighters get later on in the higher levels. That's great. Gives me something to look forward to. The problem that has been stated (and then no one talked about it) is that mages can level up REALLY easy and fighters are having a [censored] of a time. I'm playing a cleric and I RELY on my buffs to get me through the day. If my buffs run out, I'm toast. my AB is absolute crap without my buffs. If a mage walked by and cast dispel on me, I'm dead. Leveling is a pain because I can't solo much and when I party with people, the xp is junk. If NS4 is meant to be party based, then we need to get MORE xp from parties then we do soloing. That would make more sense to me. And yes, I am factoring in that you can kill tougher stuff in a party then when you solo. Maybe it's just my faction (NC) and all the areas I've been (avendell, melencia) and I'm just not finding and good places to level, but it's REALLY hard to level unless you can game all day. And lets face it alot of us have jobs/school that we have to go to and we can't play games all day and night.

The point I'm probably not making, but am trying to make is that casters can level faster and get access to their high level spells while fighters are stuck struggling to get to the higher levels and get access to the good weapons I've been hearing about and not getting. Casters are getting access to really good dmg spells long before fighters can get their hands on good gear. If something can be done do help fighters level up as fast as mages do, I think this wouldn't be such a big issue.

Your thoughts please.