PM talk

[Cthulhu Drega]

I believe this is the general tone Very Happy . By making a Pale Master evil-only, this makes them vulnerable to Smite and all. Thus, not weakening them in reality. Just bringing them down to reality with a true weakness.

true weakness? you realy need to make and play a PM before you go judging how weak they are or should be dont ya think?

[Celorn]

all of these things people are suggesting are way to difficult to code (i imagine) and they impact legitimate non-ultra-cheese builds.

The only thing to level the playing field with PMs is to somehow limit bard/pms... pretty much all the other possible PM builds are far weaker, the problem is with one cheesy bard/pm build.

I'm not sure if the crazy NS3.5 PM limit is the answer, but I don't have an answer of what the best way would be for NS4. Possibly some kind of # of levels of bard and pm limiting to force the builder to choose to be an epic bard OR and epic PM, not both (this would follow with the same idea as limiting 5 for dual-classing some builds and 10 for triple-class builds - thus nerfing casting for 2 or 3 class mixing).

I'm just thankful MA can't make barbarians or the pm builds could be even MORE powerful.

[Gumppy]

i dont agree with celorn's idea at all, and like ive said before no i dont have a pm .

to single out pm/bard combo i just dont agree with. btw the fighter 4 wiz 6 pm 30 build is very very nasty.

i cant understand why this is turning from a do something about PM prc into a but wait when u combine it with this or that, better limit that thing.

what about wizard / SD better limit that aswell its nasty. and the ranger/sd thats just really nasty when u take all favored enemies in pc races and the list goes on.

from what i can gather harm is an extremely usefull spell on a pm, yes they have mantle but it lasts a very short time and even if they save they take somewhere around 150 damage , add a balor to that which also casts harm and a cleric is looking ok vs pm as 1 option.

while i agree pm is a very powerfull prc class, there are many nasty combo's out there that arent rating a mention, cleric/monk/wpn master is an example.

as far as i can tell a pm is truely boring to lvl from what ppl are tellign me and the spell durations can be extremely annoying and lead to tedious resting resting resting patterns. these seem like almost reasonable trade offs for the ac etc.

but like celorn said lots of the idea's are difficult to code in, and i too dont know the answer to the problem but imo saying the pm/bard combo should be basically made redundant so no one will pick it is not the answer.

i just feel, and of course may be wrong that the evil vs good battle is being easliy one on the server atm by evil. I would love to see something that gives NC and TC a chance in the relic race also and because of this i agree with the paladin vs pm thing for certain, i have a 20th lvl fighter/pally/cot and i notice that despite the impression that things are evil when u try a smite there is not a lot after 20 that it actually works on - as an example the ice efreet box says they are filled with hate etc but when u try smite em it dosent work - how is that possible ?? im not to sure about planar mobs either but they seen mostly like they would be neutral particulally the air, earth and water planes ???

i think this pm thread is growing long in the teeth and would like to see one about improving TC and NC faction in general ideas really from players, reasonable ones that dont involve giving classes that arent suitable to these factions - lets help the devs and such out like we did with the artifact thing -throw some ideas out there and lets see what the server can come up with.

[mgrjebbo]

well the problem with a cleric vs a pm is... ever try to cast a spell when your on your back? or taking 4 crits in a row to the tone of 70 damage? it doesnt work to well. discpline isnt a class skill for clerics and never will be so to say that a monk or fighter cleric is cheesy just cause they want alittle discpline or tumble is just not fair. besides i tryed the cheese myself. with a 40+ wisdom your ac doesnt get any better than if you were wearing epic lvl full plate with a sheild. so monk/cleric isnt in reality that great of a build when it comes to melee.

[MasterYoda]

personally I think if were gonna nerf builds let chase have final say

but the problem here isn't ne build being over powered its the fact many people have come up against it and have either

a: got toasted badly

b: ran and hid cause they couldn't do anything against it.

c: are just running with the crowd of hate mongers.

there isn't one unbeatable build on this server. I have even seen dm toons fall during a fight.

the problem here is people need better builds.

I fought dd1s PM pre wipe with a full blown cheese bard cleric wm level 36 and yes I did get smoked. u just have to pick yer self up and keep going. build something better. u already know what there building .... build something just to fight a m with.

I don't know whhat all the fuss Is about.

u don't loose xp, gold, or gear from pk. so y is everyone upset about a specific build.

there hard to level to that level and honestly I have respect for anyone how can level there toon to that level.

wiat isn't this a faction server too? can't u get fellow peolple to help u defeat them?


seriously now stop yelling about these power builds and go level.

if u spent half the time leveling as u did complaining in the forums about a certain build u would have one that could defeat it.

I don't think people like dd1 , cleron, even willow should get punnished for these good builds they come out with just cause thbey have been playing for so long that there toons are amazing. not just pms but there builds in general.

(and yes clorn I know u never have built a pm I was refering to archangel jain and sister sin )

end rant

[Cthulhu Drega]

OMG i think i actualy agree with havok ... im gonna be sick

[kingfatzo]

wooot

[Celorn]

well, no havok, you're totally incorrect.

If there wasn't a problem, then why do PMs get limited so often on pretty much every server? I do think on high magic servers it's SILLY to limit them since (for example):, on ns3.5 all the nerfing of bard+pm did was force people find shifter+monk builds that could get the same AC+ab as pms making the rule to block bard+pm pointless...

And I -HAVE- built pms on ns3.5, other servers as well as offline, and I did not explain in detail (thus giving people instructions on how to build them) but ON NS4 -- you can get an AC of near or over 80 and take no damage for several rounds from ANY type of source magic, arrow, sword, axe -- long enough to kill pretty much any PC or NPC on the server with a particular bard+pm+ftr build -- THIS is a balance issue, a way out of whack issue and will continue to crop up over and over again as more PMs appear. Still, there are ways to beat them, but it takes time and know-how.

The other PM combos are not so dramaticly powerful, I have taken them all down with my own builds, and it's because they lack the all around power that the bard+pm+ftr -can- attain.

BUT, for now the answer is not to NERF them but let them be, and just give ways for other builds to get up to nearly the same level THAT will solve the balance issue better than limiting/nerfing, but at the same time can end up causing NEW balance problems to appear...

You can never win, except for allowing only Fighter class and +2 sticks for all, but what fun would that be?

[MasterYoda]

celorn.... u stole my thunder.

now I must go cry.

lol jk

[Death Dealer1]

everytime i hear about the bard/PM combo i also hear about how they couldn't kill them because they were chugging heal potions. doesn't this seem like the issue more than not killing them? i mean if they are chugging potions your killing them, you just have to run them out of potions and money.

[P. Fricebottle]

You can never win, except for allowing only Fighter class and +2 sticks for all, but what fun would that be?

I dunno, that +3 Stick of Doom sounded pretty tight .

[havelot]

If there wasn't a problem, then why do PMs get limited so often on pretty much every server?

I've not found this to be the case. I've seen various prestige classes and/or Feats (HiPS, Devastating Critical and the like) nerfed on a number of servers. There appears, at least to me, to be no consistent pattern. Balance among the various classes, as I've suggested elsewhere, is the Holy Grail of NWN mod development. To my knowledge, no one has accomplished it. Every developer has his or her own (sometimes strongly held) view.

To be candid, it disheartens me to see so many lamentations concerning this or that class (now PM, another time SD or DD). In my years playing NWN, I have seen some truly ingenious and remarkable builds - the result of players just digging into the NWN documentation, playing with various combinations on paper, experimenting with them in a particular mod and making the necessary refinements to maximize their capabilities and minimize their weaknesses. THAT, guys, is what makes NWN really fun.

It almost seems many players want microwavable toons that they can just copy and use to conquer the world. They want to win Wimbleton without having played hardly any tennis.

On this server, let me suggest some possible combinations that could prove very powerful (without ever having built any of them) using particular subraces and the right weapon:

C/M/SD
C/Bb/SD
R/Bb/SD
F /DD/Rg
D/M/SD

Now. maybe some of these combinations are not truly vialbe on NS4 for some reason of which I am unaware. I would invite other posters to demonstrate why in their responses.

Part of the solution to the "balance" problem could, imho, be achieved by adding a greater variety of weapons. For instance, if you gave the R/Bb/SD build something to use besides a certain +4 Kukri with rather limited Elemental damage - something more like a +6 Whip...well, you get my point.

[Kirg]

SNIP
In my years playing NWN, I have seen some truly ingenious and remarkable builds - the result of players just digging into the NWN documentation, playing with various combinations on paper, experimenting with them in a particular mod and making the necessary refinements to maximize their capabilities and minimize their weaknesses. THAT, guys, is what makes NWN really fun.
SNIP

Certainly for some it is true. Powergamers like to min max their builds. And there are really quite some pnp players too. I usually killed them in the first session while I was DMing. There is always a weakness they forgot to cover, hehehe.

I hope the Devs and DMs always will keep an eye on the "weaker" builds. Those are mostly more fun to me, because the challenge factor and need to party with others is bigger. Else we could get an uniformed server (only having those nasty builds running around) and a boring at that.

[Binkyuk]

my word. i remember not too long ago when if you didn't make a travel domain 16/4 cleric/ftr or a 18/1/1 sorc/pally/monk you didn't have a chance. it's a heck of a lot better than it used to be.

For what it's worth without having made one to uber epic levels I think PMs aren't too overpowered. they have a cool summon, but that's not without it's problems pvp. a fighter/bard/PM's ab sucks hugely (unless they waited until epic to take their PM levels, but then they'll have a weaker summon) and a wiz/PM's direct damage potential will be severely limited and their combat buffs short lasting and very dispellable.

In the scenario where it took 4 people to take down a PM were the 4 attackers actually in any danger of dying throughout the whole experience or was it just impossible to do damage?

[Celorn]

my word. i remember not too long ago when if you didn't make a travel domain 16/4 cleric/ftr or a 18/1/1 sorc/pally/monk you didn't have a chance. it's a heck of a lot better than it used to be.

For what it's worth without having made one to uber epic levels I think PMs aren't too overpowered. they have a cool summon, but that's not without it's problems pvp. a fighter/bard/PM's ab sucks hugely (unless they waited until epic to take their PM levels, but then they'll have a weaker summon) and a wiz/PM's direct damage potential will be severely limited and their combat buffs short lasting and very dispellable.

In the scenario where it took 4 people to take down a PM were the 4 attackers actually in any danger of dying throughout the whole experience or was it just impossible to do damage?

Yah, that's exactly it... without a mage to do large amounts of direct damage, taking out a PM is painful, especially if they're chugging pots.

2 of us have taken out some high LVL pms and their summons, and in this SShot it took 4 because willow kept healing over and over - but he's an epic summons PM, so he has many weaknesses that the twinked PM doesn't.



As for builds... yes i'm thankful there are lots of great choices on ns4! possibly the widest variety of effective ones you can find. The problem with the cleric/SD builds is that it's hard to get your hide&ms high enough to be effective against the high levels of spot&listen you can get to.

And sure, there are non-pm builds that can get decent Ab and AC from 65 to 80, but they aren't sneak and crit immune, so they can be taken out by a few lucky crits.