RFC: Proposed Class Changes

[The Hasselhoff]

While stating this with the current account or original account may be considered spam for merely agreeing and saying, "I totallly agree."

I totally agree with the original idea and also the idea that it should be ten levels instead of five.

Peace. J2theOI was only stating historical facts.

[garrykasparov]

I think that this is a good idea. You may also consider imposing the restriction that a character must take any monk/pally levels prior to 35 to avert backend cookie-cutter munchkinism.

A related sidenote on the breakdown of classes:

I feel that monk (especially) and paladin are the most abusable of the single level classes, so feel that a restriction probably only needs to be made to them (and possibly the SD Prc. -- but I was under the impression that HiPS has been twinked so that queueing it up isn't a sure fire hide tactic). Also, some people feel that the rogue is just as overpowered as the monk class. I do not agree with this assessment.

1 monk: evasion, wis bonus to AC, and AC from tumble, and discipline as a class skill. I think that this is by far the most unbalanced "side class." It can make a sorc/pally build essentially invulnerable to reflex save based attacks, add 12 or more to AC to any class, AND give resistance to KD to classes that cannot otherwise obtain it (e.g. cleric builds). Try hitting a finessed cleric/monk with his dex, tumble, and wis AC -- not at all easy.

1 level of rogue: d6 sneak, extra AC from tumble, and no evasion, access to UMD
Useful, but not overpowered IMO. A check is necessary for the function of UMD and a large number of skill points need to be invested for it to be extremely
2 levels of rogue: add evasion. Great, but still probably not as unbalanced as a single level of monk with most builds.
3 levels of rogue: add uncanny dodge (no AC penalty while flat-footed) and an extra d6 sneak attack. Finally something quite useful for characters, but 3 levels is quite a bit more dedication than 1.

[ATI]

Let the people play. Honestly we keep nerfing things, and preventing character intuition and eventually people will simply stop playing NS. Also we aren't far enough along into the beta test to be able to say what should and shouldn't happen to high lvl chars. We need the epic zones implemented, which will add a whole host of other problems. We need more items, experience changes, and we need jobs to be implemented.

The last thing that should happen is the class system, spells, and chars be changed, before the design of the game isn't even finished yet. I know we want things to be fair for all char classes and everything, but as it is right now, we keep trying to do this, and the game seems to get more and more broke.

Stop messing with the works, leave the things the way they are now, and work these sorts of issues out later, when the build is more complete. Until that time, let the players have their reign.

I agree with dyson, we keep nerfing to find a solution, when are we going to stop? When does this all end? No one knows, because at this point we are grasping at straws in the wind. Finish the game first, make a DEFINITIVE objective in mind for that finished game, and THEN start balancing things.

[DrakhanValane]

If you don't fix the things at the walls before adding the roof, if the roof falls it could be any number of reasons. If the walls are known to work and you add the roof, when it falls you know the roof is the part that's bad and not the walls.

[ATI]

Exactly my point. Lets make the maps and the rest of the world work, the basics like items, jobs, and areas. After that, then you worry about classes and things like that.

[dond]

you got it backward ATI........content is the last thing to be added.

usually you do game balance/fixes first, then add content

[DrakhanValane]

Thank you dond. That's what I was trying to say. :)

[xionic]

Ok my little add-ons :

Since u wanted to tak step into 3.5 edition :

When you take Prestige class u shouldnt be able to level in another class until reached final level (for example 7th in WM).

I'm for minimum 5 levels of progress in one class.

And some more changes in Cleric class :

Since you powered Up Summons a lot (also Summon Undead) so i think u should nerf Animal Domain.
Also i think you missed one more spell (i dont know how it is called in English - it is the one u can summon a planar creature - like shadow or Wight) - it is still as it was in Bioware build.

Oh and one more thing ... one of cleric summons is Efreet and as i can read from description in game it is about 3.5-4 meters high and 2000 lbs of weight.

So i think that my Human is about 3 meter high since Efreet is not much taller than me

[Denort]

If you don't fix the things at the walls before adding the roof, if the roof falls it could be any number of reasons. If the walls are known to work and you add the roof, when it falls you know the roof is the part that's bad and not the walls.

True enough, but you need to know the shape of the roof before you start laying down walls.

With no epic characters, no epic areas and no epic items (and no single class items) how can we know for sure what needs fixing, if anything?

[Denort]

you got it backward ATI........content is the last thing to be added.

usually you do game balance/fixes first, then add content

Not entirely correct. If there were no magic weapons in the world then the spells that enhance weapons would be extremely powerful.

An idea of how items will scale is needed before decisions about classes that are highly item dependant (melee and archery) can be made with any accuracy. In particular if the single class items go ahead.

To use an extreme example. Imagine a set of robes for a single class sorcerer that give a few extra 9th level spells, charisma bonus and unholy amounts of resistances.

Would you give this up for the paladin saves bonus?
In decreasing the power of the item, at what point would it no longer be worth that 1 paladin level?
If a single class sorcerer was the only way to get a charisma boost somewhere other than a cloak, would there be that many paladin/sorcs out there?

There are many ways to encourage the less powerful class combos rather than just outlawing the more powerful ones.

[vadvaro]

mainly because I wanted to try a new build I had been planning for a while: monk/cleric alterating levels. now i have gained levels in both, but still am under level 5. what will happen when i log on with this guy? my intention was to end 20/20. hell, i am not even a human subrace so I won't get SR til lvl 24 or so.

I understand the case when someone takes 1 level of barbarian for the dodge, or monk for the ac bonus and unarmed, or whatever your plan may be, but the game was built to compensate already with the preferred classes and xp penalties for multis.

just tweak the current system to be more harsh, say -5% for each level difference so dude with 1 level of monk and 10 fighter, they'd get hit with a -45% xp penalty. or perhaps some other hefty penalty when the game spots huge gaps in levels regardless of prefered class. a 1/15/15 might really be in xp penalty land, whereas a 7/12/12 or a 10/10/11 would be fine. maybe make the lowest class no less than half the highest.

[DrakhanValane]

Ok my little add-ons :

Since u wanted to tak step into 3.5 edition :

When you take Prestige class u shouldnt be able to level in another class until reached final level (for example 7th in WM).

I'm for minimum 5 levels of progress in one class.

And some more changes in Cleric class :

Since you powered Up Summons a lot (also Summon Undead) so i think u should nerf Animal Domain.
Also i think you missed one more spell (i dont know how it is called in English - it is the one u can summon a planar creature - like shadow or Wight) - it is still as it was in Bioware build.

1) WM is a 10 level PrC. Unless you mean that you no longer can level in a PrC after you stop levelling in it?

2) Summons are being readjusted. There's a lot of them so it'll take a while.

If you don't fix the things at the walls before adding the roof, if the roof falls it could be any number of reasons. If the walls are known to work and you add the roof, when it falls you know the roof is the part that's bad and not the walls.

True enough, but you need to know the shape of the roof before you start laying down walls.

With no epic characters, no epic areas and no epic items (and no single class items) how can we know for sure what needs fixing, if anything?

They know the shape of the roof. They just haven't told the rest of us. We don't need to know about the epic level things to make sure the core mechanics work.


They want to fix what's in before they add more things that may be broken.

[xionic]

1) WM is a 10 level PrC. Unless you mean that you no longer can level in a PrC after you stop levelling in it?

Weapon Master is 7th level base ? hmmm

i meant that every PrC have "Base" amount of levels. When you reach base+1 you go to epic PrC (in NWN).

If i remember correctly in D&D if u take PrC u have to level it up till the end. So lets assume that in our case "the end" is "Base". So if u start beeing RDD then u have to fill levels until u reach "base" (=10) of RDD (when u reach it it u can of course level more in it or in other classes).

[DrakhanValane]

WM is a 10 level PrC. There are only 5 level and 10 level PrCs in 3e. It's just that the last distinct ability is gained at 7 (pre-epic). You aren't an epic WM until you've taken the 11th level.

The requirement to go the full length of the PrC is just a house rule.

And in NWN you can only go up to the base number of levels of the PrC before 20. In PnP 3e I don't know if you can even go past the base at all (I don't have the epic level handbook).

[Denort]

They know the shape of the roof. They just haven't told the rest of us. We don't need to know about the epic level things to make sure the core mechanics work.

They want to fix what's in before they add more things that may be broken.

Yes but they are asking the rest of us our opinion. I much prefer to give a fully informed opinion rather than basing my opinion on only half the facts.

To give a truely informed opinion on what classes need arbitary restrictions, if any, we need to be aware of everything that can influence how powerful a class can be. Otherwise we may find the restrictions rather inappropriate when the rest of the world becomes available.

Balance in both pre and post epic levels is not going to be easy and these decisions are being based on pre epic only. Should we be aiming for goal posts that we know are going to move in the future? Or should we be looking at solving other problems now and figuring out balance issues when the whole spectrum of levels is available for testing?