NS4 going PvM only?

[MtainEer]

This is funny, Monkey dual logs and says its against his moral rules...Deadeyes does not dual log but thinks its fine.

The reality is that NS4 can not police it and its not against any rules. How could you tell if for example a Fury was dual loging or it was just family members...same for my buddy chief yellowhair and his wife sweet country girl? If it makes you so upset that you feel you have to leave, well there are servers out there that give you much better xp and have wiped loging accounts for dual loging buffing themselves in pvp.

Now, as for Mining saying all races get keen senses..well, no need to put a timer on hips...a str based assamir would spot any hipster 100% of the time.

MtainEer

[Nyeleni]

Afaik Monkey doesn't dual log. It's Rogdog who uses a similar account name.
And Mining did mention to adapt the Aasimar aura.

[Revel]

How can you say all of those people log buffers at various times?
What a load of rubbish. I have never dual logged for raiding, defending or PvM. Ever.
I can also say, without a doubt, that all the claims you have made against us have been done to us by your faction at one time or another. Even dual logging.
To say our tokens are OP is also ridiculous. Half of our team is RK! They do not get those so called OP tokens. Even though you say we are overpowering, outnumbering you, using OP tokens and dual logging, I still get killed regularly, I still get run down with a relic and have it taken from me and I still get beaten senseless by your faction when I'm defending. I don't come on here and complain when this happens!
When I started playing here MASL were the strongest team. They always had the relics and always had many defending if we finally got enough together to raid.
The pendulum has just swung the other way is all. I didn't come on here when the odds were in your favor and ask for changes. I made better toons and helped recruit.
I'm sorry if some of your faction find they want to leave when things don't go their way and it's always sad when someone decides to leave but please, why make untrue accusations? What toon was I dual logging? Where was this dual toon logged so I could buff my bard? Why would I want to buff my bard? We all lose at one time or another. Have the good grace to accept that you can't always win.
And to Tazz, welcome to NS4. Try playing 2 years and you are only one of two RK players on and you have to wait for MASL to take their 20 players off to bed before you can get a relic for bonus xp leveling or you get pked 3-4 times a night on your one and only badly made toon and then tell me about disheartening. Stick with it Tazz and Bargeld's opinions are not the only ones available.

[Shadowalker]

my buddy chief yellowhair and his wife sweet country girl MtainEer

They back? If so tell em Twig says 'Allo there"

[mining]

Eh, made post, deleted it, I think I will make it in the end:

Overall, as far as tokens: RK=AO=NC=MA>>>SL>TC, with SL~= TC.

Generally, I think NC and MA's tokens are fine, as they're generally more limited factions, while TC and SL are more broad so should have slightly weaker tokens (but perhaps not as weak as they are, though thats just an indication of how heavily we (Lokey and I) weight unresistable damage). RK, similarly, tends not to have any numerically amazing builds (with some exceptions, but the lack of all subraces makes the numerical bonuses offered by the tokens less apparent), but their tokens are definitely amazing, if not transparent to the user.

The issues with AO token are more subtle: Firstly, in general, there's a lot of free saves on job tokens. It's actually a really big advantage, and it's going when the saves revamp hits. AO, NC and RK will lose their +3/+3/+4 uni/uni/will saves. Secondly, +3 AB/AC is very, very noticeable, in contrast with MA's -2/-2 aura (along with other stuff). You don't necessarily notice the enemy being a little easier to hit and a little easier to dodge; you do notice the fact that they're now harder to hit, and that if they kill you, their last attack was at 3 more AB than your similar build. The net result is a reality that its too good (the saves) and the illusion of superiority (the AB/AC).

Anyway, there's 3 main things I see coming out of this thread:

A) There's a lot of self-righteousness and "You guys do this crap too" in about equal measure. Cut the crap, we both know there are dual loggers on all sides. In terms of quantity... I don't think we really need to get into a name and shame, or anything, but its pretty clear that it doesn't matter. Even if dual loggers are even on both sides, the times they're on would likely vary.
B) "BUT ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO ENFORCE". People spewing this are instantly telling me "Yeah. There's something so so so not right going on here." I've never seen players yell and shout about "is it possible to do" before - I don't want to read too much into intent here, but A) Non dual loggers don't like dual logging. B) If you oppose the idea of banning multilogging, you're benefiting from it.
C) An uncomfortable amount of crap like

It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.

I'd rather get a billion 'useless' complaints than 0 feedback at all.

[Revel]

I'm sorry Mining if I appear self righteous and talk crap. I was under the impression I was defending myself against unfair accusations. Apparently I don't possess your silver tongue when doing so.
No wonder most don't make a post here if that's the reception they get. So much for your feedback.

[mining]

I'm sorry Mining if I appear self righteous and talk crap. I was under the impression I was defending myself against unfair accusations. Apparently I don't possess your silver tongue when doing so.
No wonder most don't make a post here if that's the reception they get. So much for your feedback.

I'm speaking to the thread as a whole.

[Rufio]

How you say things is just as important as what you say. Sounding angry or slighting another player is almost always going to result in a negative reaction from those who didn't already agree.

[Monkey]

This is funny, Monkey dual logs and says its against his moral rules...MtainEer

For the record: I dual log for transfers or to test something. I don't dual log for the purpose of gaining XP faster or to gain a competitive advantage in PvP. I would not find playing that way enjoyable. To me the game is most fun in a party where everyone is working together and playing their roles well.

If Devs/DMs are not going to ban dual-logging then I don't object to others doing it. From what I've heard they object to the practice but are not able or willing to create and enforce a ban.

Congratulations to AO/RK. You have won these relic wars. As far as I'm concerned this is now a PvM server (and a very good one thanks to years of effort from the development team). I'll see you all online, hopefully for some good leveling and epic PvM.

[mining]

This is funny, Monkey dual logs and says its against his moral rules...MtainEer

For the record: I dual log for transfers or to test something. I don't dual log for the purpose of gaining XP faster or to gain a competitive advantage in PvP. I would not find playing that way enjoyable. To me the game is most fun in a party where everyone is working together and playing their roles well.

If Devs/DMs are not going to ban dual-logging then I don't object to others doing it. From what I've heard they object to the practice but are not able or willing to create and enforce a ban.

Congratulations to AO/RK. You have won these relic wars. As far as I'm concerned this is now a PvM server (and a very good one thanks to years of effort from the development team). I'll see you all online, hopefully for some good leveling and epic PvM.

Well, we're willing, it's just really hard to make it foolproof. I can't help but think it might work with a lot of community and DM effort, but... its hard. If anyone can think of a relatively reliable way to enforce it as reliably as PVP rules, we're all for it.

[nwnnsw]

I have a question about the jobs bonuses. It is my understanding that the job bonuses are as follows:

TC - dex +1, wis +1, disc +2, heal +2, lore +2, open lock +2, taunt +2, tumble +2, listen +4, hide +4, move silent +4, spot +4, search +4
1) vine pipes: conceal in outdoors
2) forest eye: stackable random elemental damage and +1 to dex and wis (stackable)

RK - wis +1, con +1, disc +7, heal +3, lore +3
1) stalwart slammer: dc 30 will save (35 underground) knockdown effect for 2 rounds, +4 will save, 1d4 sonic vs neutral
2) minemaster forge: it steals 2 ab and 2 ac from enemies armor, caps at 4

NC - str +1, cha +1, disc +4, heal +4, taunt +4
1) holy symbol of the coalition: ultravision, see invisibility, +20 spot, +3 to all saves, 30 spell resistance
2) defender of the pure: 1d4 divine damage vs evil, 20% movement speed increase, damage shield (10 divine each hit)

MA - int +1, cha +1, lore +4, hide +4, spot +4, umd +4
1) fiendish aura: aura gives a -3 penality to ab, ac and saves to good aligned enemies, -2 to neutral and -1 to evil, also gives immunity to level 3 and lower spells (neg burst, searing light etc)
2) fiendish aura 20% movement speed, 1d4 negative damage, damage shield with negative damage, small amount of % immunity to negative

SL - dex +1, int +1, disc +2, lore +2, taunt +4, open lock +4, listen +4, tumble +2, hide +4, move silent +4, spot +4
1) vial of lolth: it can be used as a darkfire to buff both weapons and ammo with 1d10 acid damage, 2x day, or it can be used as a poison grenade (dc 40 cloud)
2) dark mask: conceal indoors

AO - edit: +1 con, +1 str, +2 dis, +4 taunt, +5 spot
1) asgorath's blessing: +3 ab/ac/saves
2) dragon sight: true seeing

I'm told we do get bonuses - anyway to have it show up in the journal like the other factions?

[mining]

AO has permanent bonuses of:

+2 disc / +4 taunt / +1 Strength on Exterminator
+1 con/ +5 spot / +3 lore on Slaver.

Your bonuses are actually quite good, certainly better than I remembered .

[Bargeld]

So, ao jobs net 25 spot.

[mining]

So, ao jobs net 25 spot.

Sure, but unlike NC job, the AO token is literally true seeing.

[Bargeld]

So you can dispel it? Does TS spell stack?

My point being, if you have a fght rogue WM in AO vs SL.

No aasimar in SL for spot bonus
+4 SL vs +25 AO
+3 ab ac saves AO

With a +7 helm and a TS helm (if it stacks) then they are capped. Whereas SL is stuck at a flat 31 with the same setup. Even with c/c scrols at 15 rounds a pop, we can't get more than 41.

And that's just the first non-casting spotter that came to mind... monk or rogue AA? monk WM (no c/c available at all)?