You say this, but I can list a whole bunch of melee clerics that do take magic domain - specifically to increase the number of builds they can tackle.Bargeld wrote:Perhaps this touches on one of the problems. One of the variables I presented was a that it was a melee cleric. A melee cleric will not take magic domain.mining wrote:I'd actually put money on the cleric, provided magic domain of course. There's a lot of AoE stuff that'll kill the SD if it doesn't abuse kits/pots/etc.
The reason why I did a 1v1 comparison is because it's the kind of thing I'll actually do - I'm showing how I go about actually analysing situations. Of course, in an actual 5v5 it's a moot point because a mage, or potentially a magic domain cleric, can nuke down 650ish HP in about 3 rounds, given the chance.If the dm's/devs can't even listen to the players enough to agree on basic principles that the players state clearly, then anything the players suggest is a lost cause because the dms/devs take the 'we know best' approach and will do whatever they feel is appropriate based on their enterpretation. Mining's enterpretation in this example appears to have been 'Bargeld is trying to prove something and I have been challenged to poke a hole in his theory. I have my own idea of what he is stating because I have already read what he had to say.' The problem is that you didn't listen, you heard what you wanted to hear and responded in kind. If that is always the case, then I'll offer no input at all in the future and I will suggest to my cohorts that they do the same because it is lost on deaf ears.
And as far as the table/comparison above, you actually added that comment while I was typing all this... that's great 1v1 with mirror toons, but how many toons are actually mirrored melee toons in the real world application? Same race, feats, gear, books? It is a small example set of a specific situation. It's a robot comparison that doesn't apply to the concepts that we are trying to explain, nor does it even touch on the other SL specific deficiencies that have been brought up. It doesn't take into consideration the 5v5 scenario. It doesn't take into consideration the non-mirror battles. Mining, you even said that AO, even without the token, has a more powerful melee presence than SL. So to compare as you have above serves no purpose. This is a factional thing, not a 1v1 thing. Please, please listen to that.
As for not listening - I listen to everything anyone says. I take it in, and consider it. One thing everyone needs to realise is that my job is essentially to take in every scrap of information I can get - stats, complaints, observations - and then use it to come to a conclusion and modify elements of the game, in order to rectify large imbalances and implement new features.
As it turns out, the best way to get good discussion is to come up with counterpoints, and discuss and debate the relevant aspects - because taking arguments at face value is a really, really bad idea. Dragons get awesome stats - lets nerf them - but actually it's fairly balanced because they're practically impossible to move around.
