Bigsy spells

[silontprotecter]

How is that you people canno't see that whose class your playing shouldnt matter? The thread is to saying Bigby's is overpowered, not every person should pick X class so will able to kill wizards. If I wante to play druid or somethings I would. I do no want too be having to pick a certain class to fight them, which is why I sayed to balance so We couldnt have to pick wiz or something. Bigsly is the problem not class that we picked. Aslo, shutup about smitering.

[Nyeleni]

Ok, I get it that you don't like the smiting detour. Still it would be nice if you would polish your english a bit. Unless it isn't your first language. Then it isn't that bad.

Regarding Bigby: I think everything has been said, and all but for Mamba, who was one of the biggest detractors to cry fool and threaten to leave NS4 if Bigby got touched (which now is blatantly obvious to be stronger overall), and still seems to be convinced to want the older versions back; I think, the rest of us agrees on the effectivity of bigby. Maybe they are too good now.

I understand Mamba's reaction back in the day though. As having to change a build especially with different foci can be a hassle.

[Daltian]

Korr's idea about bigsby being affected by epic dodge and concealment is nice. It's a melee attack after all. And the damage needs to be lower, its way too much for spell that isn't damage spell only.
If not that then at least make it not instant. Give us a chance to use dismissal. Why have the dismissal mechanic if it's useless. Also, still spells shouldn't be affected by spell failure on bigs, but that isn't that big of an issue.

[BlkMamba]

The Point i was trying to make was:
My mage was still effective, and now with another smack to it, it'll still be effective
doenst matter what you do to a spell, there's a way around it and someone will make it work
But Mining, if you wanted to drop the effectivness of the kd, i would have suggested Concentration
at least thats a trait a mage can get..

Mamba...

[hond]

fire beam from shifter bypass epic dodge, concealment and use range attack dice...make 120 average damages and no saves...

[Daltian]

fire beam from shifter bypass epic dodge, concealment and use range attack dice...make 120 average damages and no saves...

Yes, azer shaped shifters are huge threat. People are dying all over the place when facing azer shifters. Its TC go to race when defending since it kills people so well. /end sarcasm

[Daral0085]

fire beam from shifter bypass epic dodge, concealment and use range attack dice...make 120 average damages and no saves...

Wrong. Touch attacks (whether ranged or melee) do not bypass concealment. They do bypass epic dodge however. I have no idea what "range attack dice" means.

[Snookz Eaglin]

I'm very surprised that bigbys got nerfed so fast, with just a few tnc people with very little experience playing bigby mages complaining.

Here's a few points (in my opinion!) why I feel a change was unecessary:

1. So for the lvl6 big the damage was high, comparable to igms, but, as I suspect quite a few players don't know it's doing bludgeoning damage.
So, tthe average damage of 40d8 (which is what a pure mage gets) is 4,5*40= 180. If you wear full bludge gear the average damage will be 180*50%-20= 70 dmg (correct me if I'm wrong)! That is half of what an maxed igms does. Add some barb/dwd/epic dr and the damage is even lower. If you're a druid, using premonition will work great.

2. So if you know you're up against a bigby mage, better wear some bludge gear. I find killing a pure barb wearing full bludge extremely hard, I need to play close to a perfect game and the barb must be playing sloppy.

3. High 70s ac builds are useful too. Access to fom? Then bigs 7 shouldn't be much of a problem.

4. If you're a cleric, you'll have more healing power than what damage a mage can deal. Mages can't heal.
Silence is a nice spell.

5. If you're an sd with some rog, throw some mord scrolls, rip the mage a part. Some apparently feel cheesy playing sd's, but that's a really bad argument.

6. An effective bigby mage is made of paper: low 40s ac, ~30 saves, low hp, NO DISC. They die in a second and they're going to be extremely stunnable even after stun nerfs.

7. Well built RDDs are extremely had to kill due to their high ac, high strength and high hit points. Same goes to a lesser degree to some of the shifter builds like tiger and dragons.

8. Don't just 'click the red guy' when attacking a bigby mage, use the terrain, go in and out of field of vision, wait for your moment to strike. If you know if he's going to pass at an transition, wait for him there and kill him when he comes (e.g. a fighter with kd token).

9. With the new bigbys, cots were pretty balanced.

Negative energy burst is the real killer spell.

[Bargeld]

I have no idea what "range attack dice" means.

Wow, just wow. This is a basic mechanic IMO. Maybe that's because I play a 'sin and the vial attack is a ranged touch...

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Touch_attack

[Amoenotep]

we'd been discussing bigby's for a little while, you guys are kind of behind the curve.

[Daral0085]

I have no idea what "range attack dice" means.

Wow, just wow. This is a basic mechanic IMO. Maybe that's because I play a 'sin and the vial attack is a ranged touch...

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Touch_attack

I'm familiar with ranged touch attacks, I just had no idea what dice he's talking about. Does he mean the ranged touch AB roll to hit? Does he mean the damage dice? It's ambiguous. If he's talking about the touch attack mechanic, it's powerful because it ignores armor and shield AC, but I have no idea why someone would call that the "range attack dice".

[Rufio]

Snookz, we know that bigby does bludgeoning damage, this is common knowledge, but how often does anyone wear 50% bludgeoning immunity in pvp? Pretty much never. 25% immunity and 20/- is a more reasonable assumption, and in that case it would have hit for 115 damage, which is still a lot.

The FoM thing with bigby 7 is moot since a mage has mords. Even if you have FoM, it is going to take a round or two to react and cast the spell, and at that point you have already been pulled and slowed long enough to get blasted by a few igms or pounded by the mage's buddies.

Most of us play mages even though we don't primarily play in a faction with mages, so we know how to play a mage.

The nerf that mining just put in is pretty tame really. Bigby 6 still pushes back at the same attack bonus, and the damage is still good. The only change to bigby 7 is that the d20 rolls now have a little more influence on the success or failure of the spell. They are still incredibly useful.

[Rufio]

I'm not sure how azer shape got into this discussion. Remember that the fire stream is not quickened and once per round, so it is about equivalent to a quickened spell doing 60 damage. Also, ranged touch attacks use dex, and azer shape is not a dex-based form and only gets 24 bab with 30 shifter and has no self ab buffs, so the touch ab isn't very high. You can get a touch ac high enough to dodge that ability pretty easily on a dexer or a monk.

[Bargeld]

I'm familiar with ranged touch attacks, I just had no idea what dice he's talking about. Does he mean the ranged touch AB roll to hit? Does he mean the damage dice? It's ambiguous. If he's talking about the touch attack mechanic, it's powerful because it ignores armor and shield AC, but I have no idea why someone would call that the "range attack dice".

Cuz English is his 3rd language. IMO use a bit of deductive reasoning to help you with your struggles understanding him. What other 'ranged attack dice' would he be referring to, especially given the context. Granted, I'm in party with the guy every day, but even since day 1, I've never had a problem understanding him. Telling him to learn better english so that you can understand him is offensive. How 'bout you just get smarter so you can understand him better? Same thing... doesn't come off very nice, does it.

And as far as the azer shape junk. I want to continue rebuking the statements made, but this is not the place for it.

Back to Bigs... meh whatever. I have my own unique bigs mage. His bigs rolls are awesome. He smacks down everyone, with no mercy. And I never use him. It's just not much fun really... regardless if it is wimpy, just right, or OP. Don't care. I WILL say that our entire group got floored by DE sorcs' bigs, so I guess we can see how it's changed vs them.

And if I know I am facing an enemy with mostly bludge, I'll wear full bludge. That's why you carry 3 shields and 3 armors.

[Snookz Eaglin]

we'd been discussing bigby's for a little while, you guys are kind of behind the curve.

Ah, that makes more sense.