Change to shifters (all shapes not just shifters)

[Lokey]

It saddens me that it's been almost two years and there's still only a handful of people that have figured out how to play shifter.

and one of them is willow

[Tru3Fals3]

As far as dragons go: the formula that the dev's use druid dragon > shifter dragon > RDD dragon is not holding up. The intent might be there but AO still holds title to the strongest dragon build. A self buffed druid dragon in gold form has 60 AC (excluding imp. expertise and outside buffs from a bard). AO RDD is still capable of mid 70's self buffed (I believe around 77 AC is still possible on RDD in red dragon form, self buffed without imp experise and without bard buffs).

ok, well no offense but your wrong, druid dragon self buffed hits over 70ac on every shape. these numbers are all self buffed with no expertise.

71 in gold
73 in silver
75 in bronze

rdd dragon can hit 71ac self buffed, using the "secret" cleric/bard/rdd dragon build with divine might/shield everyone keeps hinting at (like we dont know it can be made or something very amusing), the max remains 78ac.

in both cases im using gith to max the ac. buffs are very temporary and easily dispelled on an rdd, this is not that important but most people gloss over this as it suits their cause, a simple spell can remove around 6ac from an rdd.

nerfs dont bother me so pls dont drag me into this argument, these are just some facts that have been misrepresented.

i know these are all correct because i have, or have access too, all of these builds and have tested them.

nerf seems to have bumped some things into line, i really dont see any problems with it even though its hit several of my builds.

[cRaZy8or5e]

I understand that we in TC/NC are upset that this nerfed what was possible with shapes, but at the same time, I think we're letting the nerf cloud our ability to see it in an objective manner.

Of course that's easy for me to say, I started a thread about getting them nerfed (although I spent most of the time arguing against how extreme the nerf should have been).

Elda makes excellent points about how pure druids are hit by this. I would suggest that the elder elemental shapes required 35 levels to attain (cuz I hate fighting them when they’re multiclassed). I imagine that 34 base dexterity is close to the average for most dex builds out there.

For starters; a typical self buffed air/fire elemental with a githzerai token +5 dodge boots, blinding speed, and +12 dexterity from buffs and gear gets 74 AC (75-76 with force boots and the right dex buffs). That's on par with or exceeds your average dexterity based githzerai build that doesn't have a bard song or divine shield (and doesn’t have the immunities that an elemental provides).

A fire/air elemental w/ 25 BAB gets 54 AB self buffed indoors with a +6 weapon, 56 outdoors. 56/58 if you're wealthy enough to get a +8 weapon. Now if you start playing with the BAB then the AB's will of course go up respectively. The point is that those AB's are very respectable, and still great in a party.

Oh yeah and they get all sorts of immunities. Air elementals hardly got touched by this nerf. They're AB stayed the same, and with some work, playing with all the ways to max your dodge AC, they're AC barely got touched as well. In fact, this applies to virtually all shifted shapes as maxxing dodge was how they achieved their AC to begin with. So if you want to make a high AC shifter, you can still do so, you just have to build for it now.

Since when it crit immunity not a special ability? Most folks would die for that...

Also, boo hoo... I only have 70AC and crit immunity... I'm no good anymore.

Yes, when you consider what Pale Masters get. 65+ AB, 82+ AC and plenty of HP.

65 AB is about the limit of what a self buffed PM w/ 29 BAB can achieve, party buffed they get to ~70, but party buffed an elemental w/29 BAB gets 69 AB. 82 AC is about the limit self buffed of what a PM can achieve as well (without considering expertise). Actually 88*correction* AC (max dodge) is the limit of what a PM can achieve party buffed and still have 29 BAB. Additionally PM's have more vulnerabilities than an air elemental, although fire elementals get big vulnerabilities. I imagine that's because they had a better melee weapon. However, considering that their "vulnerability" is only exploitable with spells that aren't party/faction friendly, isn't that much of a vulnerability when you're trying to defend against them . The divine vulnerability serves to limit PM’s fairly effectively.

Otoh, PM’s get a lot more versatility with spells/scrolls/ranged weapons, shield changes, etc; than an elemental.

But elementals can get monk speed, or HiPS, or blackguard/mk saves/speed (very nice build, you know who you are), *insert multiclass benefit du jour*. To me they seem fairly balanced except I hate the fact that elementals can multiclass with sd’s. Cuz I just hate HiPSers in general and making them crit immune just increases my sick rage at everything sd .

[cRaZy8or5e]

Really this is all burrahobbit's fault. It was his suggestion in the suggestion thread about shifters.

*trips burrahobbit and pushes him under the "angry" bus*

Why do you guys keep challenging them to show you builds, they don't make the statements just guessing it can be done. I guess it doesnt bother me, its really funny when they throw it in your face.

I'm not sure shifters need to be changed, like everyone keeps mentioning they have lots of weaknesses, but if a change needs to happen why not just drop the double dodge ac off of boots, easy simple change i would assume.

[VagaStorm]

Cuz I just hate HiPSers in general and making them crit immune just increases my sick rage at everything sd .

I wholeheartedly support this quote

[Shadowalker]

*starts bus..*
* loads bus with Aorks and Masl.. *
*peddal to the metal.. *
*signals crazy..*
* drives bus over burra moments before going over cliffs edge*

"Twig regrets that Twig has but one (12) life to give for Twigs forest"



PS. Time will tell the full tale and I trust that the Devs will follow this will all due dillagence.

PSS Twig knows where they live *sinister smirk*

[Eldaquen]

The only druid buff that has any bearing on AC at lvl 40 is AoV, which gives +4 to dex for a very limited duration. There is no other ac boasting druid spell that is applicable at level forty. Barkskin does not stack with natural armor from amulets, which tend makes using barkskin useless on any build wearing a +5 natural armor amulet.

I have 2 dragons. The better of the 2 dragons has AC of 62 in gold, 64 in silver and 66 in bronze (with AoV and 60, 62, 64 without AoV). The build utilized armor skin and maxed tumble (all of 20 since a druid and tumble is a cross skill). Dex ability increases do not transfer to dragon shape. So I do not see how anyone is able to increase a druid dragon's ac beyond 62, 64 and 66 without using improved expertise. Using a dex tome does not transfer to dragon form. Druid does not have cats spell to boast dex. I am stating self buffed numbers not bard, cleric or pdk buffed. By self buffed I mean that single build and not a multi-box 3 toons to buff 1 build.

Yes RDD can be made with cleric and divine shield, which is how it can achieve better ac. Druids and shifter dragons are unable to use cleric. Not a complaint a simple fact.

It was deemed that shifters AC was too overpowered so this was changed. I did not start this thread to disput or complain about the change.

[P. Fricebottle]

All aboard the little yellow bus my special children of Aetheria.

[cRaZy8or5e]

For the sake of argument, A githzerai Gold dragon with a cat's pot and/or AoV to max dodge, and IA threaded boots should get:

10 base +15 dex +9 tower shield +6 Armor Modifier +5 dodge boots +4 dodge gith token +4 dodge dragon shape +5 natural (amulet) +5 deflection (crafted cloak) +4 tumble +2 armor skin +2 blinding speed = 71 AC

yeah it took a cat's pot to get there, but it's plausible.

Wear glimmer boots, have a pure bard buff you with a max cat's, and sing ya song and you're sitting at 75 AC for a very long time.

Not to mention a pure druid gold dragon has 25 BAB +30 str +11 claws +1 epic prowess +1 blinding speed for 68 AB self buffed, 70 outdoors, 72/74 with a bard on top of that? And a faction friendly hellball. And if you build for it, you get a nasty stunning fist to go with it? Get a cleric to cast AVA and you get 75/77 outdoors?

A whole list of physical and magical immunities and 10/+8 damage reduction.

Several feats for free!

*singsong* and a beer! in a tree!

The only things that get that sort of AB are purefighters, CoT's, and the only things that can surpass that are AA's and WM, and if they have similar AC numbers then they had to go dex based and then don't get the strength damage. Not to mention none of them will have the ability to penetrate magical damage reduction as they can't wield +11 weapons.

Druid dragons are extremely powerful. Yes they only get 4 attacks a round, and their crit range is minimal at best, but for a huge tank that can flatten everything around it without touching its friends, bring it's own dragon knight spotter/dispeller . . .

Jimminy Crickets!!!! Does the list ever end?!?!?!?!?!?

[Eldaquen]

For arguments sake to reach blinding speed to make the above dragon will require a +4 tome (or 2) or sacraficing feats for great ability increases, at least in TC might be easier for a RDD. Gith is planar touched, yea for no save vs planar turning clerics.

If you don't want to be lying on the ground with no dex mod ac, no dodge ac and no deflection, then your not going to make a dragon with Gith.

[Joker_954]

Pfft... +2 dex and +2 wis, two books, wow, big sacrifice..

[Eldaquen]

If your only using +2 tomes then your build sacraficed Str, Con, and Int to get 25 dex and 30 wis. When not in dragon form the build will be extremely lacking and won't have needed skill points to survive (will lack either disc, tumble, spell craft, or concentration).

Str 9, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 8 is not going to be a good dragon, +2 tomes will only get you to 20 dex and 19 wis, still need to take a great wis and greater dex or build won't have 25 dex and 30 wis for a blinding speed dragon. Using +2 tomes to do this is a waste. Build won't have feats for epic fort, epic skill disc, prowless, etc. Won't be able to take expertise or imp expertise. At a miminum if your trying to make a decent blinding speed dragon you have to use a +4 tome, or you have to waste feats on great ability to make up for it sacraficing saves or something.

Is it possible to make a blinding speed dragon with +2 tomes, yes. Will that build survive and be worth playing NO!

Course this only applies to Druid. RDD does not need 30 wis so blinding speed RDD dragon is easier to achieve.

[Rufio]

Dragons should be just fine. They aren't ac tanks, they get a ton of HP, added damage reduction (and crazy, it is 10/+7, not 10/+8, *goes to change wiki*), and have great ab.

Constructs are similar, they get crit immunites and damage reduction, they don't need a ton of AC

Outsiders got hit hard. They didn't get any damage reduction and didn't really have that great of AB's, they relied on their ac, which wasn't even that high. mine ran at around 73 ac before, but it wasn't a gith. The rak form's ice storms are still nasty when quickened, but that is difficult to use in a party.

Undead have always sucked, pretty much just a leveling tool for those who don't care if they waste a feat on it.

Wild shape builds suffer, they were built before because of their ac, ab was always about average on them. Their special abilites all suck, aside from the drider's web bolt, drow hips, (and illithid's if you have close to 30 shifter levels), and it isn't feasible to be shifting around between forms in combat, so you often have to build for the abilites. There are still builds that will be ok, but for the most part you can build non-shifter counterparts with better stats and not have to deal with not being able to use items or spells.

Elemental builds suffer similar to wild shape builds. There are still builds that will do ok, but the main reason to build an elemental before was to be tanky. they aren't that powerful offensively. Elementals are the most flexible for multiclassing, so they have the best options for covering their weaknesses. It will be interesting to see what happens with elemental builds.

SO ANYWAYS

With the nerfs it is obvious that the devs don't want shifters to be tanks, and they are only ok melee hitters (with the exception of dragons, which are really good melee hitters, and maybe a few ab focused kobold builds, which can be good with bard and cleric buffs).

They also aren't versatile like everyone imagines them to be. You can't shift around in combat, and even if you do, the new form often doesn't grant you much, if anything new. (there are even forms that have NO special abilities).

The last point if the most important here, can we do anything to make shifters the versatile builds we imagine them to be? as it stands now they are actually the least versatile builds. You can't really de-shift in the heat of things to use items, spells, or ranged attacks, so you are just left hoping you can kill with that one melee attack or special ability you have. If you have fom morded and get hit by a level 7 bigsby, there is nothing you can do but hope a party member notices and helps out. If you start getting hit by an archer or mage at range, you can try to de-shift and get into drider form, but there is a good chance you will be dead before you can do that. This is why they end up becoming tanky brutes on the battlefield, because they get stuck in one form, and by god it better be able to survive with it's ac and ab, because it has nothing else going for it.

[mining]

Hear hear.

And true, don't underestimate the AC so enormously.

rdd dragon can hit 71ac self buffed

is plain wrong. If you build for the present nerf, its more like 80 AC maximum, though I can't recall exactly the natural AC offered by RDD.

[Amoenotep]

i run and shift all the time with my shifters, just takes a bit more work than standing in someone's face.


also...you'll find the shifters are more versatile shifting if you don't actually focus all your energy into a single shape.