Dragons

[Amoenotep]

So it was Tep not me who doesnt know what they were talking about in the other thread!

Yay me!

So yeah like i said, Add some rogue.

I wasn't wrong..i was right in a way you don't know about.

[Lokey]

It's an epic post...

Druid/Dragon

Stats: For blinding speed/dragon...you can build it without books, but dumping a lot of stats + still needing great stat feats is pain. I wouldn't try it until you can get it down to 4 great stats or less.

Of the 7 pre-epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 1 (lvl 1) Improved unarmed strike
feat 2 (lvl 3) Stunning fist
feat 3 (lvl 6) Extra stunning fist Eeeek!
feat 4 (lvl 9) Knockdown Also eek.
feat 5 (lvl 12) Spell focus Adjuration Pure caster, I wouldn't bother.
feat 6 (lvl 15) Arcane Defense Same.
feat 7 (lvl 18) Quicken

Add extend (some buffs, Creep). Kd/Imp kd or Disarm/Imp disarm is ok. Spell focus + greater in either conj or trans perhaps (there's some fun stuff there). If druid had mords, I could see abjuration...don't think I've run into anything that's knocked a spell off my druid except stuff in the breach list (freedom, elemental protections, etc). Expertise isn't shabby either.

Of the 7 post epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 8 (lvl 21) Great DEX
feat 9 (lvl 24) Great DEX
feat 10 (lvl 27) Great DEX
feat 11 (lvl 30) Great DEX
feat 12 (lvl 33) Hell Ball
feat 13 (lvl 36) DRAGONSHAPE
feat 14 (lvl 39) Auto Quicken 3

Bonus feats due to epic lvls:
bonus feat 1 (lvl 24) Greater spell focus Adj
bonus feat 2 (lvl 28) Epic spell focus Adj
bonus feat 3 (lvl 32) Auto Quicken 1
bonus feat 4 (lvl 36) Auto Quicken 2
bonus feat 5 (lvl 40) Blinding Speed

Saving throw feats: everyone that isn't a pali, BG or CoT needs those. I've seen people not do quicken/auto 3, I don't have the patience. But blinding speed + dragon shape means lots of compromise, but try not to dump that many stats at the same time: it only ends in tears.

[Eldaquen]

Quote: "The RDD is already more limited than the druid or shifter in the caster presence"; "The RDD does not get this flexibility"; "Elda, I have witnessed your method for combating the RDD's and it's very effecitve. You make use of the fact that they don't have fom and cast vine mine and creeping doom in the combat area then shift and wait for them. That's how Deadeyes got slaughtered by you. It forced them to wait until someone can buff them up before going one on one with you. "

Something I left out of my long post. Your right the RDD dragon is more a one trick pony type build whereas the druid has spell options and elemental forms to fall back on. However, point remains that as dragons go, in form, RDD dragon has more melee prowless than any druid dragon. (Leaving out Shifter dragon for one major reason: I have never made one and not familar with it's outcome and/or performance.)

Yes, I agree not all RDD dragons have stunning fist, then again not all Druid dragons have stunning fist either. I do not. The point of my post was to demostrate two build options with same stated goals to show the affects of the base classes when building a dragon.

Having stated that: RDD dragons and druid dragons should be different. They should not be the same otherwise what is the point of the two build options. With that said; one build option should not walk all over the other just because it exists but rather due to quality of build and how build was played.

As far as the tactics I use against RDD in dragonform; honestly was not sololy directed at RDD but against defenders in general but I digress. Yes, I cast grease and have started using creeping doom (again, more for the psychological response than damage, spell a shadow of its former self but there are those that still hesitate to enter it) plus vine mine. I have learned, even when fully buffed (with druid spells) not to face a RDD dragon head on in battle (that goes for any build not just druid). In other threads, the advice received (as nicely as I can possibly call the tone of those threads) was that I need to learn to play builds better; so TA DA. With that said, attempting to get those 3 spells off in a raid has resulted in my death more often than it has worked. Usually only get set up before it is known am raiding or if defenders are outside of the area for whatever reason, and goes back to druid casting in melee issue - not an easy thing to acomplish: oh if only had access to epic mage armor. I believe most would agree, pure druid's AC and discipline is terrible.

Something not said before, another tactic I use is to go where RDD dragon can not follow and attempt to attack from there, which might explain the outcry that RDD's 1 shifter per is unfair. This is not unlike raiders in Wolf's den going where Druid dragon can not reach, forcing a desifht which has not worked to my favor, to cast spells to attempt to get hiding raider out of crevass. Odd this is ok but only 1 shift per day is such a hardship. Number shifts per day is used up quickly, if RDD's have more then will simply run out of crevass once RDD enters and shifts forcing said RDD to Deshift couple more times and use up times per day. Not going to change the frustration of the dragon size vs. small spaces. How about instead of full grown dragon RDD receive wyrmling size and wyrmling stats No more small space issue. This last part was a joke .

I did not include affects of buffing for couple reasons, one: post was long enough, two: very hard to calculate all the affects of buffing, three: in most of my RDD encounters the RDD was buffed by pure bards and a cleric (so druid buffs less relevant in comparison), four: after druid raised from dead and then shifts - druid is without those buffs; five: many of the buffs are lost once hit with Mords anyway; and most importantly, six: attempted to compare using base stats.

Hellball is nice to have for any build. I think any would agree that hellball by itself is not going to cause a RDD dragon's demise by itself. I primarily use it to obtain necessary time to shift, to get some distance from attackers, stop a fleeing raider build so mates have time to attack and so have time to hit said build with greater ruin, to watch people scurry away from hellball's ground zero, or give party mates chance to enter an area and set up.

As far as grease vs. RDD dragon goes, it was only after the recent changes that I have ever seen a RDD dragon be knocked down by said spell.

DM Kim, thank you for your kind words.

[Eldaquen]

Lokey, reason why I included epic adjuration was in response to another's post stating druids with would possess undispellable buffs. That was written some time ago. I agree that if making a druid dragon melee build, other feats would be better suited. I just did not want to have to edit that post again. So, for any so inclined, remove adjuration and arcane defense as ye see fit.

[Rufio]

Pre-epic feats aren't a big concern really. There are usually enough to take the important ones

[Korr]

To Lokey : If you dont have abj defense you dont wanna meet a few of my casters in a (large) dark alley with your druid dragon. I also disagree that a druid should not have epic focus abjuration (cuz then only abj defensed level 40 casters are undispellable) to strip people like mad of their buffs. I dont understand why you think abjuration focus would help a druid if it had mords. . . all mords does is auto-strip spells, there is no dispell check and abjuration focus doesnt help it.

To Elda : I stated in my last post that comparing two specific builds is a bad idea. To elaborate : A) Its not creative B) I build x so you build y so I build z. . . infinitely this leaves lots of characters that only get played if x or y are on, bad idea (always). Im not saying you do that, but thats seems to be the "incentive" of your post. . . comparing those two builds is like making a wizard and a sorc fight it out. . . without spells. Having fought with you and against you I would have to say that you do some strange things sometimes in PvP elda. I would first point out unless its a MASSIVE brawl (10 v 10) or more I would NEVER deshift within 1-2 rounds of someone reaching me. Step outside, come back in cast your spells (1 at a time dont stream them like buffs (that sometimes causes round delays if it wanted to start a spell but you moved away and tried to shift)) and then when threatened/done shift up. Everyone knows a druid standing willy nilly is bait, leave room to run a few steps for a shift. Also that night some time ago elda where we defended NC with a hand full of others we owned that relic room for hours on end, with few causalties from the main defense group (sorry for those who remember and were constantly slaughtered). Raiding and Defending isnt checkers where you dart for the end, its chess you plan your next moves based off multiple options your opponent has. But I do think I remember that night your hellballing knocking some dragons down to become kitty food.

[ashsagoon]

I think one huge difference you're missing Elda is that Druids do not have to be built to be dragons. Dragon shape is a single extra feat that you don't have to take or even qualify for if you don't want to. Druids built as elementals or casters can be incredible as well.

However, no one builds a 30 RDD without the intention of using dragon form. RDD levels are hell and levels 11-30 gain you nothing but 4 ac with a not-so-great skill set (not horrible) and horrible epic feat selection, if you don't qualify for epic DR then you're going to be taking a lot of epic toughness feats (like paladins who don't go for smiting).

So what I'm trying to say is a 40 druid can be anything and doesn't even need to have dragon shape. But a 30 RDD WILL depend on his 1 shift per day because outside of it you're probably going to suck. You can't really compare the two because druids aren't dedicated dragons like RDDs are. Besides, I've seen some nasty 40 druid dragon-focused builds. They take creativity and sometimes sacrifice (no auto quicken gives you 1 pre-epic and 3 epic feats but it's SLOW) to build.

All in all I'd like to point out (and maybe Torm will remember this) that I beat TWO RDD dragons AT THE SAME TIME with my Sorcerer Peck. Although the last few hits on one of em were stolen by someone else, had they not interfered I would have gotten both kills. Oh and IIRC I even got feared once at the beginning.

So based on that fight I would like to suggest that they add Hellball and Greater Ruin to the epic selectable class feats (without requirements and party friendly like 40 carster HBs) for RDDs to bring them more in line with 40 Druid Dragons

[Nyeleni]

Don't want to spoil your victory but winning with a mage against dragons, actually against any melee build isn't that grand, even if both of those dragons have 1k hp each. That is why we in Daeron and Melencia ask for mages (especially every time we hear you complain about a thing in NC and TC). Not that we don't whine either... We are all in the same club after all. Don't know how the Devs and Gods even bother to hear us out sometimes.
Then again they seem to have fun with LA chars right now .

[frogofpeace]

I have to agree with Nye here, mage's seem to be balance shifters across the board. This also brings to mind Kim's earlier post (and I paraphrase) that there is not necessarily a way in every faction to combat every build in every other faction. The implication of that is that we are playing a meta-rock/paper/scissors game in which (hypothetically; shut up, PWnD!) AO > NC> X/Y > ... > Z > AO. I'm still trying to work out whether that's true, but if it is, it seems counter to the spirit of the server. It means (hypothetically; shut UP, PWnD!) that NC/TC can NEVER win in the relic game (or general PvP melee) against AO in an unbalanced server where not every faction is equally represented or represented at all, really.

BUt I don't know every build and I don't understand RDD's enough, really. But, logically, CoT's should be unnerfed, and need super-solar shape with 30 levels, cause, you know, there's no reason to take 30 levels of CoT, and you only get to use wrath once per day blah blah

[burrahobbit]

Peck is an RDD sorc (immune to fire) that never leaves the safety of the guild hall unless he is bard buffed to 78 ac. Great toon unless you have any spell reisist at all. I hate seeing peck when i am runnin around on my CoT's. That being said....

What does that nice little story have to do with anything. Cant make rdd sorces anywhere but AO

Are druid dragons as tough as RDD dragons, the HONEST answer is no (atks per rd and druids dont have the ac). Was that intentional, probably. Is it going to change, i doubt it. If anything the nerfs will roll back and RDD's will become tougher, they already have thier reflex saves back.

Would i have nerfed them to begin with, probably not, although if i was king for a day i would give them the same melee presence that a druid dragon does.

Conclusion: Take away their bards and clerics buffing the crap out of them, they are not that bad. Is it fair that they have uber dragons, who cares, lifes not fair. Does NC have a fighting chance against AO, not really, but that was by design right........

T

[frogofpeace]

who cares, lifes not fair.

Bingo - the server's fun, c'est la vie

[Korr]

I always think that r-p-s is a bad analogy for NWN. I agree the one beats the other which beats the other is a fair representation, but thats just rules. The play of r-p-s is entirely off, the best strategy to use in r-p-s is to be random every time you shoot your sign. I would say think of a 6-way chess board, with some pieces missing. One faction has no knights, one has no rooks, one has no queen, one has no bishop, etc, etc. Meaning each different side would have to play differently because you have to trap someone in different manners to be effective with your setup.

When there is someone around to give my kitty haste (and is not stripped by a spell), I have sent peck running and dieing multiple times.

[ashsagoon]

Peck is an RDD sorc (immune to fire) that never leaves the safety of the guild hall unless he is bard buffed to 78 ac. Great toon unless you have any spell reisist at all. I hate seeing peck when i am runnin around on my CoT's. That being said....

What does that nice little story have to do with anything. Cant make rdd sorces anywhere but AO

Peck usually doesn't have bard song. I don't keep my bard in AO and unless someone else logs a bard I go without it (at least 75% of them time). So only 73 ac. The immunity to fire also makes no difference. I could kill an RDD dragon with a pure sorc or a pure wizzy or any derivation there of. And there are other builds that could wipe the floor with RDD dragons even when they're buffed with a bard and before the dex nerf (you're the one who was kicking my behind so thoroughly burra

NC may or may not have a single build that can take an RDD straight on, I don't know, I don't build there. But other factions do for sure. Most of the time when you guys are fighting an RDD dragon you are fighting one that has been thoroughly buffed with a bard and/or cleric and usually you are not. Off topic but the biggest problem with other people is their tactics. I hardly ever saw any other factions on teamspeak which is a huge disadvantage. And most of the time the CLADs, FoNs, TSS, IO, and DD will all run into the relic room one at a time to get slaughtered instead of grouping up and going in together.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Peck is an RDD sorc (immune to fire) that never leaves the safety of the guild hall unless he is bard buffed to 78 ac. Great toon unless you have any spell reisist at all. I hate seeing peck when i am runnin around on my CoT's. That being said....

What does that nice little story have to do with anything. Cant make rdd sorces anywhere but AO

Peck usually doesn't have bard song. I don't keep my bard in AO and unless someone else logs a bard I go without it (at least 75% of them time). So only 73 ac. The immunity to fire also makes no difference. I could kill an RDD dragon with a pure sorc or a pure wizzy or any derivation there of. And there are other builds that could wipe the floor with RDD dragons even when they're buffed with a bard and before the dex nerf (you're the one who was kicking my behind so thoroughly burra

NC may or may not have a single build that can take an RDD straight on, I don't know, I don't build there. But other factions do for sure. Most of the time when you guys are fighting an RDD dragon you are fighting one that has been thoroughly buffed with a bard and/or cleric and usually you are not. Off topic but the biggest problem with other people is their tactics. I hardly ever saw any other factions on teamspeak which is a huge disadvantage. And most of the time the CLADs, FoNs, TSS, IO, and DD will all run into the relic room one at a time to get slaughtered instead of grouping up and going in together.

73 AC is nothin to sniff at for a caster though lol.

Door transitions with a large group rarely allow for people to all come through at once. Slower computers/vid cards will delay up to two rounds lol .

That's neither here nor there.

Burrahobbit's discussion was not to say that we couldn't kill RDD's with NC builds, it was to show that your argument that RDD dragons were pieces of cake for Peck was irrelevant to this conversation because PEck is not a build that others are allowed to combat RDD dragons with.

A pure caster can kill an RDD dragon IF it has a lot of room to maneuver and keep said dragon at range and slowed througha variety of methods I won't go into here. But still irrelevant to this conversation as you all rarely take the RDD's out of AO, with good reason, they're one hit wonders. Not your fault just common sense. But still, no pure caster is goin gto take down two RDD dragons inside your relic cradle. Could take out one, if it was by itself, but you guys don't play the RDD's by themselves that I've ever seen. The fact that you like to play them with a pure bard around, though that's not always the case, is just common sense. Fighting AO emphasizes the importance of having a bard in your pvp party, they can make a party and break an enemy. If you don't have a bard, as I was explaining to my CoT compatriots tonight, you've just given up a 10AB/AC swing.

So since you wisely employ them for the most part in the confines of Sleeth's relic cradle where people have to come at them, suddenly its a different animal. It plays to their strengths, and doesn't really allow for any of their well they don't have many weaknesses. Based on our discussion tonight, they have a slight reflex save weakness after they scaled back the initial nerf. Very very very slight reflex save nerf. If you have a pure bard they start becoming vulnerable but that's about the only time that their reflex saves are a liability in pvp.

Anyway, the point of this discussion is to discuss how tough or not tough dragons are. Are they overpowered, I don't know, at times they really seem like it, but then I always seem to be outnumbered when I'm fighting them. Everything seems really powerful then.

Do they need another nerf, nah. I didn't think that they needed a nerf before hand. Like I said above, they got nerfed for pvm reasons. At least that's my speculation. Were they still very powerful after the initial Ref Save nerf? I think so, they just had a glaring weakness that could be exploited. Is that still the case, nope, not even close. Do I care, not really.

Will I still have fun, you bet .

[Eldaquen]

Quote: " B) I build x so you build y so I build z. . . infinitely this leaves lots of characters that only get played if x or y are on, bad idea (always). Im not saying you do that, but thats seems to be the "incentive" of your post."

My post was not incenting build counter builds. In fact I stated that I do not advocate or sugggest either included in that post be built. With that said, relic war, PvP, community in general, and other posts/threads are providing incentive for the creation and use of counter builds. One of the reasons why I stopped using my cleric scyther, because everytime log her in to use in a relic raid, defenders log a sorc build to mord then counterspell. Pretty much brought fun to a halt; why bother when everytime the counter is brought in. My post had nothing to do with incenting counters, tactic's use has been long in use; nothing new. Was not the pre-log player list removed to make logging in counter builds during raids more difficult?

Besides, a pure druid dragon is not a counter build to a RDD dragon. If there is a counter then I do not know what it is. Ashsagoon's posts seem to indicate the counter is arcane based build (excluding bard).

I wrote that post to counter the prevailing community opinion that RDD and Druid dragons are the same. Or at least the propoganda written in these forums claiming as such. In my opinion they are not. Dragons might look the same and the dragonshape feat, up until recently, held same ability score enhancements, but the underlying base classes are so different that they are not the same. I just wanted to point out that they are different and dispell the notion that all dragons are created equal, which they are not.