NS4 going PvM only?

[Daltian]

If i had that build in NC i would have 2 more fort, 127 real spot + 4 from smurf size, and a permanent 50% concealment.

This explains everyone that if we do "ok" (im not saying good im saying ok") its due to dedication, a lot of dedication.
Just think about how much takes to gather the gear and the books for that toon.

If there is a toon that benefits from the jobs, is the multiclass rdd, the jobs are made for it.
But compare it to a cot, with same books : 71 ab on cot with tremendous damage/round vs 63 ab and a damage that is decent only if it does a critical hit; 80 ac on cot vs 73, 60 fort and 60 will on cot vs 40 fort and 45 will. Solid 8 mins lasting undispellable ab vs a dispel bait. Finally 20 dr+8 vs 15 dr +8

Way to bend the truth. NC has such horrible faction/alignment restrictions so having a build that is by your presentation better then one of the builds you can make in ao/rk is reason enough for you to justify multiloging?

Multilogging is cheating, plain and simple. It gives unfair advantage to whoever is doing it. And if it didn't give advantage then people that do it are either crazy or mentally retarded because no one of the sane mind would multilog in pvp for any other reason.

[Shadowalker]

In TNC there are two long term players that can dual log, but both only use it for rescues or PvM, they being Monkey and Opie.

Korr has recently began to work the TNC side of the fence at time and I think his loging limit is more a matter of how many toons/diffrent logins he has access too

[Korr]

IDK where all this KOrr is AORK thing comes from.

I have at least as many MASL toons as AORK. And twice to three times that out of TCNC.


Bargeld, when you raid with nothing but heals slotted on a cleric/pm (or others, or with cleric/sd) youre not there for a GF. Youre not there for fun. Youre there for the in and out. You run from the fight, you dont FIGHT the fight... I get SO tired of hearing you talk about wanting good fights... you dont want that. You want to heal your way back to MASL so you can log a toon that CAN fight but CANT raid because you need all those heals. Your actions are the opposite of what you are saying you want.


Taking out the dual-logging in PvP will change NOTHING. I can load 4 NWN and a defender on each of those NWN. Then I send them in one at a time, trade out as I need, log out and back in (as is legal by the NS commandments) to get the best toon in there for the time. I dont need to buff each other toon (Imagine how many more kills karate will get when shes not buffing extra toons?!?!?) so that I can comply with the rules.

Imagine :
TC cradle gets a tap
Login : Innuendo (pure fighter), Glass Cannon (rogue hipser), Edgecrusher (shifter)
-Innuendo makes the first quick and easy run to cradle. Steps in blows tokens, throws stuns and slows everyone done... when shes tapped out log her out (or when she dies).
-Immediately Glass Cannon steps into the fight and takes out the weakened links in there where possible, if there are no spotters he will likely kill everyone. If there are spotters or he dies log out.
-Immediately Edgecrusher steps in with the appropriate form for the battle because Ive had the chance to look over any toon I dont know of. Edge is hard to kill, and can dish out a beating.


I can do all that (and more) without the down-time between relogs without ever dual logging IN the PvP or buffing other toons. Is that going to be your next point when you cant heal your way back to the cradle? That I shouldnt be allowed to have more than 1 toon logged in at any time during PvP? It will be too unfair and unbalancing to not have the 1 minute relog time... ruining everyones fun!!!

[Bargeld]

I've been beat a number of times with a ton of heals slotted. Planar turning kd, counterspelling, I've even been KD'd and disarmed by both dragons and WMs. I've had a cleric/PM for about 6 months now out of the almost 5 years i've been here, and it is NOT the only toon I use to raid. But you are right, it WILL get the job done in most cases. And similar to my comment about fire vs fire with alka's multilogging during PvP, I use that toon and heal because it is a survivor against the odds it has been up against.

Regarding your multilogging at different times... that's a venge log and you know it. The point of the no venge log rule is to prevent a PLAYER from switching toons during the same PvP session. The point of the upcoming suspension of dual logging serves the same purpose. Sure, feel free to try to skirt the rules all you want, but you are just showing your intense desire to NOT play a fair game that the rest of us play. We don't bring 4 toons to a fight, either at the same time, or in immediate succession. The only exception to that is the same exception that applies to everyone, and that is during defense.

Speaking of defense logs, you are one of many who also choose to abuse that rule against the spirit of the game. When you raid with a toon and then have to relog to a different toon to defend, that toon is there for defense. You can't just run your new defense toon from your defending city out to the enemy cradle on the grounds that you are chasing a stolen relic. If you logged a defender in this situation and the raider makes it out of your town and into neutral territory, such as Beryn or avendell (or even some of the maps in between). YOU ARE NOT DEFENDING. You have been beat, the relic was stolen and it's now a recovery and raid scenario. Personally, and also how I recommend to my teammates, defense occurs while you are still in your factional lands. The best way to determine this is whether or not you get XP for a kill on that map. Sure everyone goes a couple maps out from time to time, but that rarely becomes an opportunity, and by then, its usually a better idea to log off that defender at the edges of your territory and then log your raider back in. But raiding with one toon, then relogging a 2nd for defense and running it from your home cradle to chase an enemy all the way to their cradle is not 'defense'. I have been told this by multiple DMs in the past while it was occurring, that's how I learned the rule and why I apply it this way.

[Korr]

For those of you not up on the reading... the situation I described was VERY specifically relic defense.

Fair? PKing lowbies is FAIR? Youre doing an amazing job of contradicting yourself... RED = Dead is the philosophy of all or nothing, do whatever it takes. Then you come back with "well except all you other guys... then its not ok" because you dont dual log noone else should be allowed to? Its not that hard to do, doesnt even require a second computer or monitor to do effectively.

There is NO rule anywhere that says where defense ends and begins. If I log a toon to defend and the raiders want to do nothing but run (which is horrible spirit of the game too FYI) then why in the hell should I STOP my defense because theyre too chicken to fight? Why shouldnt I track them down the rest of the way to kill them and take BACK what they STOLE? Its just another point youre making where you want to be on the advantageous side... SL (including you!) have gone outside SL boundaries to recover relics that were taken out (everyone does... not singling SL out on this). Its a VERY common sense thing (even mining said that when you asked him about it)... common sense says get that damn relic back! If you REFUSE to fight, then dont blame me for REFUSING to give up the chase.

Put up or shut up! If youre gonna raid... fight! Dont run scared refusing to fight and then try to turn a rule AGAINST someone for something YOU are doing. Thats exactly what is happening, you want to justify yourself for running away and not letting someone chase you... seriously think it through a little bit youre contradicting yourself!

[Bargeld]

The only time I stated 'fair fight' was in regards to PLAYER vs PLAYER, toon vs toon. 'Fair' means a single player not using 2 or 4 toons every time you engage another player. Fairness in that sense of the meta-game.

Word lawyer all you want, I'm not contradicting myself on anything. Rule lawyer all you want as well. I was told about the boundaries by multiple DMs at multiple times. That's one of the things that many people have stated in the past, that DMs often enforce their own morals erratically and entirely different depending on the time and the DM. I'm just repeating what I was told, and what makes the most sense to me.

Easy argument against your raid and fight stance: 40 monk. Everyone has 'em and everyone uses them. The goal is to get the relic out and that is ONE technique of doing it. You bash that idea, yet it's obviously within the rules. Talk about contradictions...

Keep it up Korr, I have confidence you will get yours in the end, from both players and DMs. And me.

[Korr]

And somehow bringing a cleric/pm with ALL the heals you can slot slotted isnt pushing the meta-game?

Since when are we just supposed to run on your interpretation of everything?

Fair : free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice
Fight : a battle or combat

Theres the literal definition... but when you were pressed about it it suddenly changes to something different? Its only valid in the contexts YOU feel it should be valid in....

A 40 monk making it out at hyper speed, un touched is an entirely different situation than a cleric running out. The cleric will be chased and attacked and beat down over and over just to heal and heal over and over. The monk has NO competition if theres not another high level monk there to defend, this isnt true for the cleric... he just has to hope he has enough heals to make it past the people wailing on him.

Its not about rules lawyering, or word lawyering. You are saying and wanting one thing while DOING the opposite of such and blaming OTHER people for that same mind-set that YOU have and the same actions YOU take!

[dude]

" Multilogging is cheating, plain and simple. It gives unfair advantage to whoever is doing it. And if it didn't give advantage then people that do it are either crazy or mentally retarded because no one of the sane mind would multilog in pvp for any other reason."

Could not have said it better myself : )

I remember a day when DMs kept the rules of the server
I remember when people played honorably and the people that didn't were shunned
I remember when there wasn't even a thought of favortism from the staff " Not implying anything staff, but take it as you wanna"
Tho I am totally guilty of flipping out on shout or doing stupid things, I think a once awesome, fun server is pretty much dead.

Now all ya get is flamed, or taunted or exploited on.

" Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you "

Of course you're gonna have people acting like idiots, some for pure selfish motive and others in retaliation due to constant unfair or unhonorable acts toward people that have spent years being tightly woven into friendships. Some of us DO NOT screen shot things and send them in, or " squeal " we either work it out or just tell you how we feel. Why not, you tell us things that even respectable enemies in RL won't say to one another. If you punch someone in the mouth in RL and don't expect a retort or action of some kind then you're a really dumb person. I haven't seen a DM log on in forever. monitor????? um no. Tho I DO see Minin log on, as far as anyone else, negative. All things considered, The things that go on in NS4 should absolutely be expected from the players if there is no one there to enforce the rules. I, myself have answered to breaking the rules. Chase at one time b4 his life got busy the way it is now was an awesome example of a DM who made people follow rules. I'm not bringing him up for any other reason then He's a DM who has EARNED that respect. We all should probably EARN the respect for one another.

[Monkey]

And somehow bringing a cleric/pm with ALL the heals you can slot slotted isnt pushing the meta-game?

Counterspell makes a big difference.

The monk has NO competition if theres not another high level monk there to defend, this isnt true for the cleric...

Stunning Fist, Fighter KD token, Roar...

Every build has a counter. Sometimes that counter requires more than one defender. Trying to kill a PM/Cleric is a lot of fun, IMO. Very gratifying when you finally do it.

[Korr]

And somehow bringing a cleric/pm with ALL the heals you can slot slotted isnt pushing the meta-game?

Counterspell makes a big difference.

It sure does when there are heals slotted in level 7 and 8 which will hold more spells than a max sorc can hold mords to counter with...

The monk has NO competition if theres not another high level monk there to defend, this isnt true for the cleric...

Stunning Fist, Fighter KD token, Roar...

Every build has a counter. Sometimes that counter requires more than one defender. Trying to kill a PM/Cleric is a lot of fun, IMO. Very gratifying when you finally do it.

I dont disagree there isnt a counter to every build.

What bargeld is very specifically saying is that he should be able to walk out with a relic healing and healing and healing... then with 5 people beating on him he finally hits the 3rd screen (or however many) and gets to say "YOU HAVE TO STOP CHASING ME BECAUSE YOURE NOW RAIDING"(considering that those players had previously raided, which may or may not be the case) which is total crap. Its also a horrible push to the meta-game... which is EXACTLY what he is in here complaining about.

[dethonlegs]

he finally hits the 3rd screen (or however many) and gets to say "YOU HAVE TO STOP CHASING ME BECAUSE YOURE NOW RAIDING"(considering that those players had previously raided

If it's been under 30 mins since you logged your raider then yes, you need to swap back to that same toon or wait 30 mins. Barg didn't make these rules up, DM's did. Don't blame the messenger - not that i've ever heard anyone actually stop to say this to the toon chasing them.

[Monkey]

In TNC there are two long term players that can dual log, but both only use it for rescues or PvM, they being Monkey and Opie.

I don't dual log for PvM. That's cheating in my opinion. Everyone should be on equal ground for leveling and gear acquisition.

I dual log for gear transfers because I don't want to bother others by asking them to hold maps for me.

[mining]

he finally hits the 3rd screen (or however many) and gets to say "YOU HAVE TO STOP CHASING ME BECAUSE YOURE NOW RAIDING"(considering that those players had previously raided

If it's been under 30 mins since you logged your raider then yes, you need to swap back to that same toon or wait 30 mins. Barg didn't make these rules up, DM's did. Don't blame the messenger - not that i've ever heard anyone actually stop to say this to the toon chasing them.

This is correct.

Also, we think the "relog defenders when you like" rule is pretty dumb (it leads to a lot of pseudo venge logging and stupid exceptions) but we'll stick with it. Just, you know, common sense and all? kthx.

[Rufio]

If I am still chasing someone with a relic, I'm not going to follow that rule. Just letting you all know in advance.



I've said in the past that cleric healing and full resurrections are overpowered for PvP. On the other hand, nerfing healing would really screw up high level PvM. That is a different discussion though.

[Bargeld]

If I am still chasing someone with a relic, I'm not going to follow that rule. Just letting you all know in advance.

The opportunity for that to apply doesn't happen that often... it's really only when you've already raided with one toon, then swap to defend with a second AND then run all the way into enemy lands to raid with it. And I've only called one person out on it, which was Korr 1x in-game, and that was because he was relogging all kinds of toons and running all over the place with them during relic PvP. Normally, most of us and everyone else, don't really care about nitpicking the rules about relogging etc. But when it comes to Korr and his blatant disregard for FAIR PvP, I make an exception and will mention it. His response then was the same as his response now, just an utter disregard for the rules.