Rest restrictions: An effect melee/caster balancing tool

[QuickLightning]

6 "game" hours always seemed to work fine on most servers i've played on (8 just plain sucks and 4 isn't much of a time sometimes =/) makes mages take their time instead of buffing casting resting buffing casting resting *yawn* buffing casting resting.

[JesterOI]

6 game hours sounds like it would work.
As for implimenting the use of scrolls for the down time, reduce the exp cost of scribing.

[Knightwing4]

6 game hours sounds like it would work.
As for implimenting the use of scrolls for the down time, reduce the exp cost of scribing.

every set of scrolls (up to 5) takes about 30 seconds to make, DYK that in order to make a scroll you must spend one of your spells to make it?]

BTW yet again i am heavily against this, this isn't a straight RP server, you're not doing this for the RP value, you're doing it to weaken mages (Hiding behind "i want less mages to balance it out")

What's the difference between a mage who casts his spells, casts his invis, and runs for the hills, and a mage who casts his spells, casts his invis, runs for the hills, and spends the next 5 game hours waiting to rest again? 15 minutes RL is the difference, there are SO many things that a rest requirement screws up

[ATI]

Why is this even being considered?!! I mean, I'm down for balancing classes and things like that, but this isn't about total reality. Your stepping down a slippery slope on this one....look at the logic. Oh, well it should take people 6-8 game hours before they can rest again, whats next? Maybe nerfing magic items because they don't make much "real world sense", Then what? Getting rid of cleric spells, except heal because thats what a cleric is......Then what? Monks can only be unaligned because monks like to be neutral.....come on.... people lets get off this slope.

We need to take in two very important points:

1: This is a game about MAGIC, the very concept means REALITY IS SUSPENDED. When you play a game that involves magic, monsters, dragons, and hero's those games generally also involve suspending reality. Why? because in reality you can't cast a fireball, you can't weild a 40 foot sword, and you can't rest every 2 seconds to get you HP back. Thats why we don't make games like "Reality RPG!!!!, The Game That Simulates Role Playing Real Life Situations! (Inside you'll experience....paying your taxes! you'll simulate, BUYING GROCERIES!! HOw fuN!" This is why we play games, its the very core of the game, trying to make our games too realistic negates the very concept of playing the game.

2: And more importantly artificially making the game harder for everyone in order to solve the least of problems should never happen. Its like a game on the PC that has limited saves. Its like PC Gamer says, thats not hard, its just pointless. Making the game simulate resting conditions through time restraints just makes the game artificially hard with no real explanation of why we should have to wait. If you want casters to be more balanced, then instead of nerfing their spells, make items available to counter the effects, make enemies that are smarter (bosses) and make the game challenging through its dynamics. But making the game challenging by simply altering the reality of the entire game without looking at easier and better alternatives is simply, as PC Gamer put it, pointless.

[Throst54]

i think revenge has been by Axon a few times rofl....

putting it on more than 5 minutes would just cut down people's gameplay. you would only lose players by this and it wouldnt add to gameplay... Revenge, axon is still gonna kill you... alot.. and we're still gonna laugh at you.

not everyone goes and plays for four hours straight.... if everyone did then maybe every 15 minutes would be somewhat reasonable.

[Revenge]

lol you guys crack me up

i see a bunch of different bitchy threads and offer up a suggestion that i have seen work in other places. suddenly everyone assumes that a) i dont play caster classes and that b) i actually give a damn

i only started playing ns4 today (notice how i only started posting here again today?), i haven't met any of these people that seem to be giving ya grief...

[ATI]

we aren't bitching at you, but the people that will take your ideas, which are well articulated, and spin them into some horrible version that is far worse.

You'll notice that happens a lot on all forums. just remember




I love this kid

[Sagil]

I'm all in favor for resting restrictions. 1 real time hour is too much though, 15 mins seems more reasonable to me (or just as long as the racial abilities need to "reload"). As already pointed out, it could allow spellcasters to be more powerful (aka we wouldn't need to tune them down by any other means) for a shorter time. This adds more diversity to the game, and encourages grouping.

[KillingSheep]

Man, Mages aren't that hard to kill, no need for rest restrictions.

[Chimaira]

Why is this even being considered?!! I mean, I'm down for balancing classes and things like that, but this isn't about total reality. Your stepping down a slippery slope on this one....look at the logic. Oh, well it should take people 6-8 game hours before they can rest again, whats next? Maybe nerfing magic items because they don't make much "real world sense", Then what? Getting rid of cleric spells, except heal because thats what a cleric is......Then what? Monks can only be unaligned because monks like to be neutral.....come on.... people lets get off this slope.

We need to take in two very important points:

1: This is a game about MAGIC, the very concept means REALITY IS SUSPENDED. When you play a game that involves magic, monsters, dragons, and hero's those games generally also involve suspending reality. Why? because in reality you can't cast a fireball, you can't weild a 40 foot sword, and you can't rest every 2 seconds to get you HP back. Thats why we don't make games like "Reality RPG!!!!, The Game That Simulates Role Playing Real Life Situations! (Inside you'll experience....paying your taxes! you'll simulate, BUYING GROCERIES!! HOw fuN!" This is why we play games, its the very core of the game, trying to make our games too realistic negates the very concept of playing the game.

2: And more importantly artificially making the game harder for everyone in order to solve the least of problems should never happen. Its like a game on the PC that has limited saves. Its like PC Gamer says, thats not hard, its just pointless. Making the game simulate resting conditions through time restraints just makes the game artificially hard with no real explanation of why we should have to wait. If you want casters to be more balanced, then instead of nerfing their spells, make items available to counter the effects, make enemies that are smarter (bosses) and make the game challenging through its dynamics. But making the game challenging by simply altering the reality of the entire game without looking at easier and better alternatives is simply, as PC Gamer put it, pointless.

^^^^^^^^^^

That says it all.
Esspecially the part about instead of nerfing spells, make items that counter them. Altho there are spells that are generally "Borked"(man I love the person who first said this lol) and they must be changed or just banned, bigbies forcefull/interposing hand have very little to no thought put into them on how they can be used, isaacs greater missle storm just doesnt work, the way it deals insane damage to just 1 target, and deals nearly no damage to a large amount of targets just needs a change instead of "nerf" (like make it a spell that always deals a decent amount of area effect damage in comparison to other spells) and harm/heal dont even work the way theyre supposed to(touch attacks are calculated the wrong way)

[Alexiagold]

That says it all.
Esspecially the part about instead of nerfing spells, make items that counter them. Altho there are spells that are generally "Borked"(man I love the person who first said this lol) and they must be changed or just banned, bigbies forcefull/interposing hand have very little to no thought put into them on how they can be used, isaacs greater missle storm just doesnt work, the way it deals insane damage to just 1 target, and deals nearly no damage to a large amount of targets just needs a change instead of "nerf" (like make it a spell that always deals a decent amount of area effect damage in comparison to other spells) and harm/heal dont even work the way theyre supposed to(touch attacks are calculated the wrong way)

Poor Lokey, all that coding to modify all theses spells, and no one has noticed. IGMS works exactly as you suggest it should. Does d6, aoe. Bigby is something like level/5 duration, and some bigbys have saves/to hit rolls.

I'm all in favor for resting restrictions. 1 real time hour is too much though, 15 mins seems more reasonable to me (or just as long as the racial abilities need to "reload"). As already pointed out, it could allow spellcasters to be more powerful (aka we wouldn't need to tune them down by any other means) for a shorter time. This adds more diversity to the game, and encourages grouping.

I just don't get how the **** you think rest restrictions will nerf/affect mages in the slightest? I mean seriously, a level 20 mage casting from rest till standing won't run out of spells before allowed to rest again. Yet a level 3 mage will be screwed for the next 13 minutes with a 15 minute rest req. Now you say, fix the balance of rest times and class/level, but wait. What you really are doing is, encouraging exploits because mages can't rest, encouraging players to alt-tab do other stuff while they play, since they ran out of spells. I'll only agree to rest restrictions if, there is NO HEALING OF ANY FORM, because that's the only limit to fighters. So, yup if the only way to heal is a cleric spell, which is set to a 15 minute timer, I bet everyone would quit the server. So why do you want to make all the mages quit, because what you are suggesting is the same to fighters as removal of all but clerical forms of healing.

[Dallas17]

6 game hours sounds fine to me, that's 12 minuites RL time. however perhaps... somthing else

make rest time based on level, so that low levels can rest say every 2 hours, then once they get to level 6, every 4 hours, then level 10 ever 6 hours, level 16 every 8 hours, and that's as high as it goes.

why do this? because yes it does balance casters to melee classes. it means people have to have more strategie in how they use thier spells.. do you really need to fireball that yuan-ti? or can your friend fighter handle this alone?

i myself have played on a server as a caster class with 16 game hours between rests and survived, it just takes more thinking in how you spend your spells, use summons, and keep them alive. chose when to blast carfully.


another nice thing would be to enable full PvP so that area of effect spells do hurt teammates. that would again make casters think carfully about the spells. currently i've seen casters absolutely annialate creatures spamming evocation spells, then move on to the next. with power comes cost, currently the cost is too low.

[dond]

yea, bigby's is already nerfed, think it's 1 round per 4 lvls though

igms currently needs a fix (there's a bug topic in the bugtracker) to target 5 missiles max, but that's on the todo list atm.

edit:

aoe does hurt teammates.........i've used prismatic spray and killed all my groups' companions (oopsie)

[JesterOI]

6 game hours sounds fine to me, that's 12 minuites RL time. however perhaps... somthing else

make rest time based on level, so that low levels can rest say every 2 hours, then once they get to level 6, every 4 hours, then level 10 ever 6 hours, level 16 every 8 hours, and that's as high as it goes.

why do this? because yes it does balance casters to melee classes. it means people have to have more strategie in how they use thier spells.. do you really need to fireball that yuan-ti? or can your friend fighter handle this alone?

i myself have played on a server as a caster class with 16 game hours between rests and survived, it just takes more thinking in how you spend your spells, use summons, and keep them alive. chose when to blast carfully.


another nice thing would be to enable full PvP so that area of effect spells do hurt teammates. that would again make casters think carfully about the spells. currently i've seen casters absolutely annialate creatures spamming evocation spells, then move on to the next. with power comes cost, currently the cost is too low.

Also we have scroll scribing now, so that makes it even easier to deal with spell downtime between rests.

From what I have seen I have been damaged by AoE spells from mages in my own party... If you choose your spells right you can get around this by AoE spells that only hit enemies, like call lightning.

[Alexiagold]

Also we have scroll scribing now, so that makes it even easier to deal with spell downtime between rests.

The exp cost on scroll scribing alone will NEVER off set the exp gain from a kill obtained by said scroll.

Again, are you for removal of all healing outside a cleric? If not, then why are you for rest scripts?