Shadow Dancer Nerf?

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Sun May 02, 2004 8:14 pm

hey dont tell smurf how to kill me, he is just pissy cause I bothered him, hehe.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sun May 02, 2004 8:18 pm

bump

JesterOI wrote:
ToxicOkie wrote:it is nerfed...
you can not attack then go out of combat hide, attack then repeat that
i think it works fine
If it is that way, then just remove shadowdancer from the game.

What's the point of HiPS if you can't HiPS? A decoration perhaps?

I would leave HiPS alone. The most I would do is make it so that once you use HiPS it takes 1 round to take effect.

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Sun May 02, 2004 10:09 pm

ITS NOT NERFED... lol, ive been playing a shadow dancer for awhile now and you can hdie strike hide strike to your eharts content.

Daltian · Post by **Daltian** » Mon May 03, 2004 4:53 am

OK, you nerf Hips. What will rogue do then. Man rogues would be worst then harper scouts in that case.
I wouldn't mind if they asked for more lvls of shadowdancer. 4,6,10. That would be kinda ok. But nerfing it would be terrible. How would rogue then survive against caster or a tank?
hips makes you use your pretious skill points in spot. I am so sorry. Knockdown makes us put our skill points in discipline. The fact that mind spells own rogue is well known. Hips cant escape area spells.

Just learn your ways.

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:33 am

JesterOI wrote:
ToxicOkie wrote:it is nerfed...
you can not attack then go out of combat hide, attack then repeat that
i think it works fine
If it is that way, then just remove shadowdancer from the game.

What's the point of HiPS if you can't HiPS? A decoration perhaps?

I would leave HiPS alone. The most I would do is make it so that once you use HiPS it takes 1 round to take effect.

The top line was a rather silly remark.
The only point of the shadowdancer is NOT HiPS, HiPS is the most exploited side of the SD, but there are various other reasons for taking SD.
I mean a dex monk cant even get epic dodge...UNLESS he takes 11 rogue lvls, or 5 SD lvls, 11 rogue lvls means 22 SR wasted, thats a stupid tradeoff, while 5 SD makes you sacrefice 10 SR(which doesnt make you end up to be spell immune to all clerics, but at least it helps).
The whole problem with most servers seem to be that they dont "Give a damn" about how a SD can be used without being an okie(thats a joke btw, if you saw the shout yesterday at the right moment then you know what I mean) and they just ban the whole class while there are many people that would take it even if HiPS was removed(such as me). The best way I see to "nerf" HiPS is to leave it alone and just make items that counter it, such as rings with spot/listen on them, if the average tank can hear you stomping around 50% of the time just because he maxed listen and is using 2 rings of +5 listen, then a rogue(which according to daltian is just as weak as a harper scout then) will have to use better tactics other then plain HiPS abusing and corner sneaking, while it does NOT mean your sneaking abilities are completely useless, it just doesnt mean theres nothing a melee char can do about it, which normally is the case since hide/ms > Dex based and spot/listen > Wis based, since when have you seen a fighter with 50 wisdom? even if he did the rogue would still win since they get epic focus Hide/MS as an epic bonus feat, and 48 dex aint rare, as well as that sneak feat(adds 2 to hide/ms, dunno what its called) and regular focusses in hide/ms, a fighter is not based around the sole purpose of spotting rogues, and that he would have to waste 3 feats and max an unimportant stat just to have a mere chance to spot the rogue would be stupid.

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Mon May 03, 2004 12:21 pm

Ive seen some rogues in game and one of them (hallo

) told me that before taking shadowdancer levels (lvl 7 rogue/1 sd) it could be killed even by some kobolds...while after taking sd levels it could at least move around more easily and also kill some things clerics and tanks could easily kill at lvl 5...rogues are damn hard to lvl up and even impossible to play with sneak attacks if you are not in a party.however this changes by using SD and i dont men now all rogues go solo i mean that they are lethal themselves without needing to rely on others...Leave SD as it is...

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Mon May 03, 2004 12:43 pm

As one of the few people playing Shadow dancer I have seen i must say taking the shadow dancer levels made the rogue much easier to play. The way i play my rogue im runnign around wih crap HP and counting on dodging and hiding. HiPS is fine. People should just stop worrying about it. IF you want to see me stop pumping your discipline and put some points into spot and listen. otherwise stop whining. oh yeah, and what about area effect spells? use those on them.. or run away.. lol.. if they are hdiing they cant catch you.

Daltian · Post by **Daltian** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:22 am

And those damn summons waste us with Hips anyway. True seing and death magic aint good combo for us!

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Tue May 04, 2004 4:52 am

The only problem I have with HiPS is that its so easy to get, yet so hard to counter. 1 SD lvl and you got it, i mean come on folks, what other PrC gets an ability right at lvl 1 that from getting owned by kobolds, it makes him nearly impossible to be killed. And there are other ways for rogues to sneak, most people dont seem to get the point that a shadow dancer is a shadow dancer, and that a rogue is a rogue that has the ability to become a shadow dancer. A rogue that simply MUST take 1 SD lvl so he can gain such an advantage over other sneaking classes (assassin for instance) is pretty stupid. Rogues are too weak without HiPS, and they become too strong in PvP(PvM aint that bad, monsters are stupid when they cant see you, wheter by darkness, corner sneaking, or HiPSing)and the bad part is its only 1 PrC lvl they need to gain it. Dont say all a tank needs to do is put points in spot/listen however...
Hide/MS is dex based, spot/listen is wis based. Only classes able to spot well are druid/shifters, clerics, well plain druids aswell. Rangers can also spot well once they gain all the common rogue races as favored (elves, halflings, half orcs, humans....) And yes half orcs sneak well, scyther str based half orc sneaker is the perfect assassin, but theres no way that ranger is gonna spot a rogue with 48 dex, epic hide/ms focus, stealthy and regular focus in hide/ms. I think that only high lvl Shadow dancers should get it, seperates the men from the boys. (the shadow dancers from the sneakers)

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:52 am

Whats wrong with this thing anyway lol.Bioware has made a class that way and so it will be played,do you think waiting 10 lvls but gaining amazing AC and crit immunity is not as uber as u say lvl 1 HiPS is?U are playing in a server where all immunities xept dmg is out..all kinds of immunities play amazing part in a char...druid's freedom,pally's fear and disease,pm's crit immunity and so on...SD was made to help chars survive..ive been with qui and if it wasnt for HiPS we would of never killed the duegar boss as qui,when we all died ,would be a rogue helpless among 5 duegars...however with HiPS (and char was lvl 8 ) she survived till we came back...rogues (who mostly take SD) are weak on their own,dont expect them to lvl up till lvl 16-20 to gain HiPS ffs..a cleric can solo sea caves(MA faction) when he reaches lvl 5 or 7 coz of the summon
rogues cant even kill a formian alone that time...u must see that there are lots of ppl who play solo even in ns4...why a rogue be 100% dependant while a cleric or a wiz is 20-30% dependant to party?im not talking about boss fights or uber areas,simple xp areas...think about it

And last but not least...you are all talking about pvp and pvp...you think its still ns3 where i shout who wants a pvp and everyone comes to Inn and fight 1v1?u get pwned by a HiPs rogue?bring a cleric,bring a mage,drink an invisibility potion and leave,not all fights have to be won...

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:47 am

Your using examples that aint right.
A cleric can solo because of the summon? Have you even tried corner sneaking with a rogue? Its almost as good as HiPS, monsters rarely even do something smart that prevents it. PvM you wont even need HiPS except to maybe kill monsters 20% faster since you dont have to run behind a corner each time. PM crit immunity is not 1, not 2, not 5, but 10 lvls, HiPS is 1 lvl, and the only immunity close to that is pally fear immunity at lvl 2...Wow man, your actually immune to the 1 round duration of krensar fear, thats amazing, now you can lvl. A rogue basicly becomes invinceble against anything with maxed listen and a crapload of wis with 1 lvl of SD, while 1 lvl PM, WM, RDD, DD basicly do squat, all good abilities start at lvl 2, 4 or even lvl 10. Considering how good HiPS is compared to for instance PM crit immunity, WM multiplier increase, DD damage reduction, RDD strength increase, etc then Id say HiPS at lvl 10 would still make it more then worth it going 10 SD. Then again, why bother editing it while you can just make items that counter it and raise monsters spot/listen? Im sure you love it when your rogue is suddenly "Useless" because every monster and player can see you, and that youll be here complaining that its not worth going rogue since your strongest ability has been taken away, while the strongest ability of a rogue is not sneaking, and the strongest ability of a shadow dancer isnt HiPS, you just know how to abuse these so they are the best abilities

ravenmyst · Post by **ravenmyst** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:56 am

The way I see it is easy , they should just require that you take more than 1 lvl of any taken class, I think 4 is a good number.

TangleRED · Post by **TangleRED** » Wed May 05, 2004 2:19 am

I am so tired of spell casters telling me to tough it out then the next thing y ou hear is nerf the rogues, don't nerf the rogues, nerf the casters!

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Wed May 05, 2004 2:24 am

nerfs suck, just buff up a class if it's weak so that it gains a meaningful purpose. For example, fighters don't necessarily need to own casters, but giving them some bonuses vs rogues or something might help them be a little more desirable. Something like that instead of nerfing things which will just get out of hand, causing more nerfing...

Thanos · Post by **Thanos** » Wed May 05, 2004 3:06 am

When your low level and you have little or no risk to kill mobs much higher level a nerf is required. HIPS is insanly powerfull.