Low Magic DOES NOT mean no magic
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AndrewCarr
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Alexiagold
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Shh... monks don't count yeah, monks win because of their SR abilities (which is why i didn't include them in my lists 
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and your fighter must be awesome thats cool.
Still though this is a serious problem and more and more people aren't coming up with solutions to it.
And if you think there isn't aproblem...i'll create a poll and see what the people think!
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and your fighter must be awesome
thats cool.
Still though this is a serious problem and more and more people aren't coming up with solutions to it.
And if you think there isn't aproblem...i'll create a poll and see what the people think!
Last edited by ATI on Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.
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mumoogaipan
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alexia gold that is a good point. Monks are the ultimate anti-magic fighter. They have amazing saves and they have incredible spell resistance. By the by, what tactics did you use to fight the lvl 13 mages. I am curious because i want people to be able to glean some advice just incase nothing in the game changes. I think it would be good if people can read strategies in ordre to cope with the new NS4 item types. Thanks for your input
Just some generalities that give us headaches:
-Too much damage on weaps: Then there's not enough difference between dex melee and strength melee, dex becomes the only viable option. Powerful items also eclipse class distinctions.
-Spells: Reload and spam. A rested magic user of any type will probably trash any melee based character where the mage is aware of the melee enemy. A sorcerer or wizard who throws his whole spell book at something should have a pile of greasy ash to show for his efforts, but we do need a mechanic to show the vulnerability of having blown all your spells in a short time. Rest timers aren't the way to do this, so we'll think of something.
-Too much damage on weaps: Then there's not enough difference between dex melee and strength melee, dex becomes the only viable option. Powerful items also eclipse class distinctions.
-Spells: Reload and spam. A rested magic user of any type will probably trash any melee based character where the mage is aware of the melee enemy. A sorcerer or wizard who throws his whole spell book at something should have a pile of greasy ash to show for his efforts, but we do need a mechanic to show the vulnerability of having blown all your spells in a short time. Rest timers aren't the way to do this, so we'll think of something.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
temporary constitution damage and movement decreases or something -
AndrewCarr
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Fighters are made primarily for wearing armor, using melee weapons, and having fairly high HP. They go toe to toe and hit things that are trying to hit them back, causing physical damage while avoiding physical damage in return. That is what fighters do. They are not designed to be a 'Mage-Killer' class (although they can be built with that in mind, and can be quite good at it).
Mages wear no armor, rarely use weapons, and have very low HP. They make up for this by being able to cast spells. The two classes are completely different and have completely different strengths and weaknesses that can usually be adjusted for fairly easily.
A fighter can kill a mage in one or two hits. A cleric can easily drop a mage with just low-level spells (silence, hold person, dispel magic, etc). A rogue can do enough sneak attack damage to kill a mage in one round. Archers can disrupt their spells from beyond their range, as well as bypass their damage reduction. And monks can pretty much tear them to shreds. Even other mages can be built to specificallly counter other mages.
Yes, a fully rested mage with all of his buffs up who sees you coming in advance (or even one who gets the jump on you) is a force to be reckoned with. I agree with that.
I just personally don't feel that it is as unbalanced as you're making it out to be. Once again, just my opinion - not everyone thinks that no other classes can compete with a Wiz/Sorc.
Mages wear no armor, rarely use weapons, and have very low HP. They make up for this by being able to cast spells. The two classes are completely different and have completely different strengths and weaknesses that can usually be adjusted for fairly easily.
A fighter can kill a mage in one or two hits. A cleric can easily drop a mage with just low-level spells (silence, hold person, dispel magic, etc). A rogue can do enough sneak attack damage to kill a mage in one round. Archers can disrupt their spells from beyond their range, as well as bypass their damage reduction. And monks can pretty much tear them to shreds. Even other mages can be built to specificallly counter other mages.
Yes, a fully rested mage with all of his buffs up who sees you coming in advance (or even one who gets the jump on you) is a force to be reckoned with. I agree with that.
I just personally don't feel that it is as unbalanced as you're making it out to be. Once again, just my opinion - not everyone thinks that no other classes can compete with a Wiz/Sorc.
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JesterOI
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I say the main thing that causes mages to have an advantage vs warriors is their buff spells.
I think it is/was a rule in pnp that magic RODS can be used by any class.
So let's throw rods with a certain amount of charges of dispel on them for the fighters to remove the mages buff spells, and i think that may even things out a bit.
Also warriors NEED to put points into the healing skill. My barb runs around carrying usually about 200 health kits (they aren't exactly light when you carry that many, 200 / 10 * 5.5 = 110 lbs), and the fact that you can use health kits at a way faster rate than heal potions makes them indispensible.
My lvl 10 barb heals on avg 20 (and up to 40) damage per health kit, and he can use atleast 2 health kits in the time it takes to use a single potion (which surprisingly is about the same amount of time it takes a mage to cast a spell)
Put a stack of 10 health kits on 3 of your quick buttons. Then when you come across a mage, keep healing yourself until he's out of spells, then kill him.
Screw healing potions!!! All hail the health kit!!!
Of course that is vs direct damage spells alone.
Throw the mages disabling mind spells into the mix and they will probably win everytime during 1 vs 1 combat if the spell hits.
I think it is/was a rule in pnp that magic RODS can be used by any class.
So let's throw rods with a certain amount of charges of dispel on them for the fighters to remove the mages buff spells, and i think that may even things out a bit.
Also warriors NEED to put points into the healing skill. My barb runs around carrying usually about 200 health kits (they aren't exactly light when you carry that many, 200 / 10 * 5.5 = 110 lbs), and the fact that you can use health kits at a way faster rate than heal potions makes them indispensible.
My lvl 10 barb heals on avg 20 (and up to 40) damage per health kit, and he can use atleast 2 health kits in the time it takes to use a single potion (which surprisingly is about the same amount of time it takes a mage to cast a spell)
Put a stack of 10 health kits on 3 of your quick buttons. Then when you come across a mage, keep healing yourself until he's out of spells, then kill him.
Screw healing potions!!! All hail the health kit!!!
Of course that is vs direct damage spells alone.
Throw the mages disabling mind spells into the mix and they will probably win everytime during 1 vs 1 combat if the spell hits.
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Daltian wrote:Ppl, you are way out of line. this is not about dmg/round. You are forgetting mind spells, death spells. Tanks are dead when they meet a caster in pvp.
The only thing that can save the fighter is another caster buffing him!
Yeap...
Saving throw spells are the problem.
And what save items do we have in NS4?
I have seen like 4 save items lol, an ammy with +1 reflex (trickster beads) which is pretty much useless other then the +1 reflex save(which aint gonna help you save a DC 28 CL at lvl 20) And fortitude bonus on belts is pretty common, which IS good, but not enough. If you look at base saves at 20, its 12 for high saves, and 6 for low saves. That means a fighter with no saves whatsoever on his items except the incredible +4 save to mind affecting on the helmet aint gonna save the DC 26 hold from a mage unless hes real lucky and rolls a 16+, when held for 20 rounds, you can pretty much say hes dead, and with the current items theres no way hes going to save it. Its not that the world is low magic, in fact its not. Low magic means no resistance, and certainly no damage immunity, and we got plenty of that here in NS. The problem is the magic that is there is making casters stronger rather then actually helping fighters, with the current gear alone a caster can soak more damage then the fighter has in bonus damage on his weapon(10/- resistance versus 1d10 damage, do the math), fighters would be better off if there were only unenchanted weapons and unenchanted armor. Another perfect example is the lack of AC items, what caster really cares for AC items now? None do because they can get epic mage armor as soon as their lvl 21, and before that they just soak damage with stoneskin, premonition and the like(and with resistance and immunity items, you dont really need stoneskin for mobs), so on top of the fact that a fighter can barely damage the caster, he cant hit him either, while that half celestial summon has no trouble whacking the fighter.
Alexiagold wrote:2 Points I'm going to make. 1 my level 5 Fighter killed 3 level 13+ mages together today. You guys just need to work on tactics. 2 My level 20 monk naked will gladly take your levle 20 sorc/wiz any day of the weak naked. I got $5 that says you die in the first round.
I got 10$ saying itll take me 1 FoD.
And those 3 level 13+ mages either:
A: Plain sucked.
B: Were resting when you decided to chop them to pieces.
C: Got DM-killed and made it look like your fighter did it.
This is in response to the comments on poor saving throws that I have seen here but also appear in other threads, particularly against death magic. I created a test fighter, 16 constitution (+3 bonus) and left it at that and also took no feats that improved saving throws.
Fighter Level 10: Fort save + 10
Cleric Level 10 Slay Living with Greater Spell Focus: DC 23
60% Chance Kills Target
At first glance this looks rather bad, but it masks a few of the difficulties. Slay Living is a Touch attack, so it provokes attacks of opportunity and must succeed in hitting the target--not an easy task on a high ac fighter.
Comparing again at Level 15
Fighter Level 15: Fort Save +12
Cleric with GSF: Slay Living DC 23, Destruction DC 25
Mage with GSF: Finger of Death DC 25
Slay Living: 50% chance, Destruction 60% Chance
Finger of Death: 60% chance
I believe these spells still require a ranged touch attack, so you again have the difficulty of hitting a high ac or concealed target. Also, the chance of death has remained the same for the higher level spells as it did for the earlier comparison.
At level 21 with epic spell focus, it continues to match up. The chance of death remains at around 50-60%. This is, however, with the cleric taking 3 feats focusing on increasing the DC. If the fighter, who gets many more feats, were to take 3 to oppose it, the picture changes drastically. Let's say the Fighter took luck of heroes, strong souled, and great fortitude, all useful and rather common feats. That would give him an additional +5 against death magic (+1 luck, +2 souled, +2 great fort), dropping the chance of success by 25%. Additionally, every two points of constitution decreases the chance of success by another 5% and epic fortitude would drop it by another 10%. Given the prevalence of items boosting stats, I doubt that many fighters will have less than 20 constitution.
Further more as the fighter increases in epic levels, his saving throw improves while the DC of the spell remains static. This means that relatively quickly beyond 21st level, the fighter will automatically succeed against these spells. Thus I don't think that there is as great an unbalance as people think, especially if feats giving bonuses to saving throws are chosen.
Fighter Level 10: Fort save + 10
Cleric Level 10 Slay Living with Greater Spell Focus: DC 23
60% Chance Kills Target
At first glance this looks rather bad, but it masks a few of the difficulties. Slay Living is a Touch attack, so it provokes attacks of opportunity and must succeed in hitting the target--not an easy task on a high ac fighter.
Comparing again at Level 15
Fighter Level 15: Fort Save +12
Cleric with GSF: Slay Living DC 23, Destruction DC 25
Mage with GSF: Finger of Death DC 25
Slay Living: 50% chance, Destruction 60% Chance
Finger of Death: 60% chance
I believe these spells still require a ranged touch attack, so you again have the difficulty of hitting a high ac or concealed target. Also, the chance of death has remained the same for the higher level spells as it did for the earlier comparison.
At level 21 with epic spell focus, it continues to match up. The chance of death remains at around 50-60%. This is, however, with the cleric taking 3 feats focusing on increasing the DC. If the fighter, who gets many more feats, were to take 3 to oppose it, the picture changes drastically. Let's say the Fighter took luck of heroes, strong souled, and great fortitude, all useful and rather common feats. That would give him an additional +5 against death magic (+1 luck, +2 souled, +2 great fort), dropping the chance of success by 25%. Additionally, every two points of constitution decreases the chance of success by another 5% and epic fortitude would drop it by another 10%. Given the prevalence of items boosting stats, I doubt that many fighters will have less than 20 constitution.
Further more as the fighter increases in epic levels, his saving throw improves while the DC of the spell remains static. This means that relatively quickly beyond 21st level, the fighter will automatically succeed against these spells. Thus I don't think that there is as great an unbalance as people think, especially if feats giving bonuses to saving throws are chosen.
I have lots of great save items. I have a few +4 save items right now. One cloak I have has 2 +4 saves on it. Like i said in another post trying to compare 1 vs 1 same level encounter where both parties are rested and both squaring off almost never happens. Okie Christ on our server has killed more players than anyone and he is a fighter/Rogue I think. He yells in shout for people to come kill him and he still wins. I don't see fighters that underpowered. I think mages can pk easier but a skilled pvp player playing a fighter is stronger.