New rules

Zhorn · Post by **Zhorn** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:56 pm

Any chance of making it so any characters that aren't valid under the *new* regime will get auto deleveled to the point where they become valid??

I guess in most cases that would mean dropping them back to either 35 (one extra class) or 30 (two extra classes).

Well either that or another vault wipe.... The last one was such a refreshing experience I wouldn't oppose another /LOL

Alain · Post by **Alain** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:59 pm

JesterOI wrote:
Alain wrote:
Myrdyr wrote:I'm fairly pleased with the new character-build rules. They don't harm most non-caster builds by much, which was my greatest concern when I first heard such a rule was in the making. On the other hand, the rules don't prevent most of the caster and shadowdancer cheese that I assumed was the reason for the new rules...
I disagree. with the new racial spell resistance (tips hat to flailer) most casters cannot afford to lose 5 points to their SR checks. So now it is a tough decision between being competitive against high SR characters or being able to HIPS, instead of doing both as before.
Actually they can because Epic Spell Pen. gives +6.

True, with the +6 you would have 41 +1d20, which leave a 1/5 chance of the spells being resisted.

However, In order to make that a 0% chance, they need 44 (in other words at least 38 lvls caster AND epic spell penetration, or 40 lvls caster AND greater spell penetration). so the 5 lvls required makes it so that SD can't be taken without thought anymore.

Joran · Post by **Joran** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:02 pm

Zhorn wrote:Any chance of making it so any characters that aren't valid under the *new* regime will get auto deleveled to the point where they become valid??

I guess in most cases that would mean dropping them back to either 35 (one extra class) or 30 (two extra classes).

Well either that or another vault wipe.... The last one was such a refreshing experience I wouldn't oppose another /LOL

No need, all characters that existed before this change went into effect are grandfathered in.

Post by **Flailer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:13 pm

JesterOI wrote:
Actually they can because Epic Spell Pen. gives +6.

Especially because now we can choose whatever the heck SR we want to give mobs instead of being locked into 32 (or hacking it with Leto, which is problematic to maintain). So, expect to see vastly more mobs that don't have negligable SR.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:17 pm

Alain wrote:
JesterOI wrote:True, with the +6 you would have 41 +1d20, which leave a 1/5 chance of the spells being resisted.

However, In order to make that a 0% chance, they need 44 (in other words at least 38 lvls caster AND epic spell penetration, or 40 lvls caster AND greater spell penetration). so the 5 lvls required makes it so that SD can't be taken without thought anymore.

Actually 1d20+41 is a 15% chance to fail vs 45 SR...

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:55 pm

I only have 1 bone to pick with this whole system, shadowdancer. Now, I LOVE this effect it has on those darn cheeser mages. However, the shadowdancer is a poor PrC neglecting HIPS. It requires hide, ms, and tumble. Its basically the same as rogue, just no sneaks, less skills, and some "Shadow Stuff". Now I know their summons have been buffed up, but I don't like to depend on summons anyway. Is it possible to make it if Rogues have 10+ levels in rogue, then they only need 1 level shadowdancer? I mean, a character with 15 rogue/5 shadowdancer and one that is 19 rogue/1 shadowdancer are almost identical. Both hide, both sneak, etc.

Post by **Flailer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:05 pm

P. Fricebottle wrote:I mean, a character with 15 rogue/5 shadowdancer and one that is 19 rogue/1 shadowdancer are almost identical. Both hide, both sneak, etc.

Except that HiPS is so way super powered. I almost see it as 'You get your super power feat at level 5 instead of level 1' without having to do additional hacks.

I see your point, but I think it makes sense like that.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:13 pm

HIPS is really good, I admit it. However, mages get True seeing (+20 spot to beat your hide). I know you guys nerfed that, because it used to be a "See all rogues button no matter what because Bioware is a bunch of idiots and does a terrible job balancing classes." lol, but seriously. I don't know how it works, but don't people get to roll to beat your hide? Is it like a 1d20 roll + spot (a lot of them probably got it cheesed in) + 20 True Seeing vs. My hide alone.

Wait, I just got hit in the head....

I heard you guys were trying to make pure classes have benefits as the third step in balancing classes. Idea for rogue? Make it that when the rogue reaches, eh, lets say level 21 max (any higher would be impossible, rogues without HIPS are screwed especially pure) that the rogue attains a natural HIPS ability due to their many years in training. So instead of having to go shadowdancer, they can go rogue pure. I mean, no rogues are gonna go pure if they have no HIPS. Thats a must have.

Speaking of things super powered...hehe....Bigsbies and Solars.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:56 pm

Even if the spotter makes the check they still get their command queue cleared don't they?

lord_modred · Post by **lord_modred** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:52 am

someone who uses a mage that depends on HIPS just proves that they have no idea how to make a good mage. if it were up to me, only rouges and rangers would be allowed to take shadow dancer.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:24 am

lord_modred wrote:someone who uses a mage that depends on HIPS just proves that they have no idea how to make a good mage. if it were up to me, only rouges and rangers would be allowed to take shadow dancer.

Or bards.

Cluster · Post by **Cluster** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:26 pm

P. Fricebottle wrote:I don't know how it works, but don't people get to roll to beat your hide? Is it like a 1d20 roll + spot (a lot of them probably got it cheesed in) + 20 True Seeing vs. My hide alone

From my best interpretation, the check is...

Hide +d20 vs Spot +d20
and
MS +d20 vs Listen +d20
if your moving around.

Normal creatures get this check once a round, elves and those in search mode do these checks more often, no idea on the frequency on this other than an elf with more spot than the hipsers hide is generally DOA.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:18 pm

lord_modred wrote:someone who uses a mage that depends on HIPS just proves that they have no idea how to make a good mage. if it were up to me, only rouges and rangers would be allowed to take shadow dancer.

Amen! Bards work too I guess, I realize that they have open lock and are chaotic too. Its just that I'm so used to thinking of bards as cheery poeple singing songs (in PnP we called em the "queers").

Any take on the pure rogue HIPS though? Because a rogue could not go pure without it, they'd have to be babysat in a group constantly to make it past level 10. I would not go shadowdancer if HIPS wasn't so vital, I'd like going pure rogue.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:43 pm

Try treating your rogue as a warrior. Build him as a warrior.
The only downside is your main save is refelx not fort, and 5 less bab.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:38 pm

JesterOI wrote:Try treating your rogue as a warrior. Build him as a warrior.
The only downside is your main save is refelx not fort, and 5 less bab.

Do you know why I choose to go rogue? Because I am tired of the same ol' warrior hack-and-slash crap all the time. That is not the purpose of the rogue, might as well go barbarian or fighter or something like that. I mean, come on man. No, just, no.