Gil-Este wrote:bioware understood the hard and fast rules of D&D well enough to code them (more or less) but what they failed to grasp was what made each aspect of the game balanced
In case you missed it, here's an interesting post from slashdot titled "The Trouble with using D&D Rules in Video Games":
As with much everything else that is to be converted from one medium to another, there has to be compromises. D&D wasn't perfect from a balance point of view either, but it is much easier to change the rules when you're sitting around a table with the game only in your imagination, than with a limited piece of software.
There are three types of people in the world; those who can count, and those who can't.
the impression i got a few months ago was that multiclassing your rogue to be a 39 rogue/1 shadowdancer (is shadowdancer still allowed? i'm still not sure) would lose his uber benefits of being pure
Yup the crack pipe was well fired up for tumble and a few other things Bioware in their infinite wisdom decided to plague us with.
One possible solution to the whole prestige class thing is make the quests to open up a prestige class DM administrated instead of programmed into the mods by an NPC. That way the DM can look at the PC and decide what the odds are of a character like that actually existing. Or, the NPC could only allow certain base classes to become certain prestige classes (or could deny prestige class access to certain base classes).
If anyone has taken a look at D&D's new book Unearthed Arcana there are some options to turn certain of the normal classes (Paladin is the example that springs to mind) into prestige classes. It makes sense from a roleplaying perspective that a fighter starts out as just a fighter and then finds God or something like that. If that were implemented on the paladin (because honestly, who walks into a temple and says "I want to be a holy fighter please train me") then the people who are able to be paladins could be DM regulated as well. Although I do foresee this as a problem for the Northern Coalition.
O heat, dry up my brains! Tears seven times salt
Burn out the sense and virtue of mine eyes!
The problem is that ALL prestige classes are intended to be reviewed and approved by DMs before allowing them into a campaign. People who play NWN generally don't understand that and get upset if they can't play the particular munchy combo they desire.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
There are a lot of good points on both sides here, and what it comes down to is that we really want to not be overly restrictive in what players can do - most of the restrictions are there simply for factional reasons, to differentiate the factions a bit and allow for some more variety (instead of having 7 exactly equal factions).
Ideally, all these issues will be worked out in open beta. I'm inclined to, rather than legislate what players can do, rely on the "character" of our players to avoid silly twinky combos. Powergamers will do their thing no matter how many rules you toss at them, but they won't get very much favor and support from their DM-Deities, either.
you know, looking over the arguement about the multi classing and having only one lvl of a class...... I like playing as a ranger. arcane archer looks like the next logical step in that, but you are required to have arcane spell casting. Well, as Im more interested in being a ranger that has a few extra archer-type abilities, I take one lvl of sorc so I can get arcane archer. Just think of having one lvl of a class as the character just dabbling in that and not going any farther. How many classes have you taken in school or college that was one class and you learned a little and you never really did anything else with it? It's the same idea. So the character took one semester of rogue,wiz,bard, whatever training and then decided that wasn't for them, but still remembered what they had learned. I dont see what the big deal is....... anyways, that's my take on the situation.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.
Gil-Este wrote:
One possible solution to the whole prestige class thing is make the quests to open up a prestige class DM administrated instead of programmed into the mods by an NPC. That way the DM can look at the PC and decide what the odds are of a character like that actually existing. Or, the NPC could only allow certain base classes to become certain prestige classes (or could deny prestige class access to certain base classes).
The City of Arabel PW does something similar - at its best, it puts the DMs into an adversarial role with a player trying to come up with a multiclass. At its worst, it results in accusations of favortism, self-appointed template police amoung the players, and an increase in the "busy work" for DMs.
I thought NS4 was going to try and address the whole multiclass issue through the custom item level requirement system?
Well the problem is that a few classes (monk, pally, and shadow dancer being examples) give a lot of benefits at level one when they shouldn't unless you stick with the class. compare what you get at level one with a monk to what you get at level one with a bard.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
I want a look at the UMD implementation & available gear before I argue that with you .
But yes - if NS4 is going to try and avoid cheesey multiclassing, there needs to be a way enforce it. As the beta progresses & problem character templates become more evident, perhaps a prohibited list of 1 class additions in the server rules might be enough.
Here is another idea for the prestige class solution. In addition to the rule requirements imposed by Bioware, some of the prestige classes could have additional skill requirements or class requirements that are added into the system universally. Unlike a case by case DM regulated system this would (if done right) have the effect of balancing the classes without all the harms that it seems the City of Arabel suffers from. (I haven't played Arabel enough to have first hand experience with)
powerferret, in regards to the whole ranger/arcane archer thing that could be fine. here is the character situation. you're a talented, nonmagically enhanced archer, you see or hear about archers whose skills transcend those of archers who rely merely on their physical strengths, and you work towards that. you study magic so that you can then enhance your skills at the bow.
the above scenario is different than, say the paladin/sorceror. it takes a rare devotion to be a paladin. you are a stalwart defender of your faith. your god does not grant you powers so that you can then abandon your faith and pursue another course that is made easier by the easily gotten divine power coursing through your veins.
the idea of "dabbling" works for the AA example, but it doesn't work for either the RDD or the PM. no melee warrior thinks to himself "hmm...i think i'm going to study a little bit of the arcane arts so i can go on to chop off my arm as a sacrifice to some unholy power that makes me one of the living dead...with all the benefits and banes that implies." the only reason a melee class takes levels of PM is for a metagame purpose (i.e. a game rule effect that your ingame character wouldn't know about and which isn't plausible). similar logic applies for the RDD. you take it for strength and constitution bonuses, both of which are numerical representations of something about which your character has no conscious idea. perhaps there is the very rare occasional background story that provides a plausible backdrop for being a melee RDD or PM, but as a general rule it wouldn't happen.
O heat, dry up my brains! Tears seven times salt
Burn out the sense and virtue of mine eyes!
Ah yes, the hoarding of skill points. Another kindly broken mechanic. Hoarding skill points for later use isn't allowed in PnP. :) Perhaps I should say sorc or druid instead of bard.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
Actually I was referring to UMD in this case, but Tumble also applies. Bioware actually did a few things wrong in their skill point code. First is the ability to hoard points. Second is the lack of half-ranks from cross-class skill purchases.
The first and second items go hand in hand. While eliminating half-ranks simplifies the system a little, it also makes saving points somewhat necessary unless you want to force players to spend an extraneous point on a class skill you don't really want (or lose it altogether).
If you don't want to read a semi-related tangent, stop now. :)
Something I think that should be implemented from the 3.5 rules (It wasn't clear in the 3e rules) is the maximum number of ranks for a cross-class skill that is a class skill in a different class that you have taken in the past. In 3.5 it's clear that the maximum number of ranks you can have in any given skill is equal to your character level +3 as long as you have that skill as a class skill in any of your classes. You still have to buy half-ranks if the skill is cross-class for the class you're currently levelling in.
Examples:
3e/NWN: If you took bard at level one and spent 3 points on tumble (3 ranks) then took a level of Fighter you couldn't buy any more ranks in tumble. Taking another bard level at level three would allow you to spend 3 skill points to bring you up to 6 ranks.
3.5: If you took bard at level one and spent 3 points on tumble (3 ranks) then took a level of Fighter you could spend 4 skill points to buy two more ranks (total now 5 ranks). Then taking bard again you could spend 1 more skill point to get up to 6 ranks.
Granted it isn't very economical to spend all the points to get the ranks as cross-skills, but when you aren't allowed to hoard up points and you aren't planning to alternate classes back and forth it can be necessary to max out skills like tumble on a fighter with a minor investment in bard. I think it balances well if the points have to be spent or lost every level.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
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