Some precisions

[hond]

War domain cleric can cast AoV.

Touché

[Korr]

AO token gives +3 ab ac AND saves. It benefits ANY toon in AO in at least 2 ways, 3 if they are melee. 3 ac is helpful to any toon because of melee attack progression, the last hit is at -15, so even a 42 ac pure sorc/wiz gets hit less in some cases. And they save better too. They are getting almost 3 free epic save feats as a token (+3 token instead of +4 feat).

Korr, you need to stay off hond's butt on this stuff, your pushback on his statements is one of the reasons why there are so many tangents on these threads. He's trying to show you crap you apparently don't know, and it's sidetracking his main points. The stuff you are saying lately has really been showing that you are argueing for argument's sake, and not because your point of view is accurate. I mean really, 3 AC is beneficial to ANY toon. Just because you don't melee with it and get that benefit as a core aspect of the toon doesn't mean it isn't beneficial. If you manage to avoid that KD attempt on the 2nd or 3rd phase of combat, even once every 3 or 5 sessions, its still beneficial... just not AS beneficial as it is for the guy swinging a weapon. Using a job token for an additional d8 acid on your casting staff for pure HB and dc casters is an example of a useless job token. AO's are not useless to any toon, both tokens help EVERY toon in AO.

You aren't adding to the topics, you are subtracting from them.

I believe I mentioned specifically that I dont know... and first thing I did was state the need for more information. Nor did I say it was useless on toons, just stated its MORE useful for some toons than for others. You even restated one of the points I made in your same paragraph as bashing me about making "off-track" points???

If you want to know why I am on honds butt... take a look at the solar thread again, it was on topic until the 4th response :

curious case...i was asking me why i never saw an evil smiter...it's because no one is obliged to set good unless paly and because solar are dumb compared with baalor...
In one thing seems evil, is more powerfull than good, and people ask to balance it...
In same chapter, i would like to have a class who give +10 AB/save and +3 attack with a fear DC of 50, and 60 % speed increase to all party...or a cleric imploder DC 48, autoquicken III....or a tank with 60 in all saves and who can floor all oponent party turning...or a smiter who can't be smited... I can't...let it be
Complain here of good alignement players/faction is a bit exagerated...You don't have enought with 2 uniques prestiges class, greats tokens, the most pain city to reach, your bind point in front of craddle ??
Baalor are better compared with solar....you find at least 1 thing where evil is better than good...thanks rufio...

He takes the thread in 4 different directions on his first post.

[hond]

korr..Solar thread is closed...
- in my argumentation i go only 1 way...good have tons of good things, evil don't have...if baalor is better is PERHAPS for that..nothing more.
I don't ask for moving the barrack in same map of temple in SL, a second unique prestige class( just one a bit less dumb that we have actually), or moove menzoduran, 3 maps down underdark.
and i say: let it be...
Explain me the 4 way, and why you post this quote on this thread..
I made this thread to respond of some acusations, and mainly to insist of some points in my past argumentations: SL need a rebuff.
Your not agree, give objective argumentation, like i'm trying to give...and if you have nothing to say...don't post...
Some guys here think, hond is complaining , about token, unique class, class/race restrictions (prolly all the build creation aspect), because is a sucking arogant. Those persons (and your includes) will never stop 1 minut, for think , about assassin posibility and impact on server, or the token posibility difference, or the toons creation posibility...
Why ?? Just because they are on the right side of the barrier (they don't want a RIP server in case a token is considered too OP and have to be changed, they don't want to have to set good, or can't use Drow and other server rip).
They feel good playing tard OP coT, or having the benefit of OP tokens... If you can't beat them, it's just because your a nub, so just shut up and listen the Pros...
Perhaps hond is complaining all about SL, just because SL need a total refresh, in order to compete with better arguments, that it can be actually. And not ONLY because hond is a nub (and is objectivly one of them)
Those kind of players will NEVER admit SL need a rebuff, because all their past argumentation will go to the sake...
You can build better. We have no sorc/wizard. CoT is not OP. Your a nub.
Yes, one of my favorite argumentation is the token difference, and you will have to admit that NC and AO have the best tokens...
It's a subjective or objective fact ?? Compared with MA it can be subjective....compared with SL/TC it's objective.
AO token +3AB/AC/save is mega OP?? If you look it from a PM perspective with -2AB/AC token up..it's just a +1AB/AC/+3 saves...
On a RDD, view by an assassin with 1d8 acid damage, you objectivly consider that token a monstruosity...
What i ask??
Take a serious view on SL AND TC token
Take a serious view on assassin class (shifter class is a very good unique class)
Take a view on SL city design and reduce a bit the posible access to it (6 posible access is totaly silly)
My request are objective ?? or very subjective and i'm a nub (so i have to shut up)...

[Korr]

Numerically SL vs AO :

More races in SL than AO by 8. SL can have ALL races (Aasimar is the ONLY exception).

More alignments in AO than SL by 6. This is the biggest percentage difference... I stated somewhere (and strong think so) that AO should probably be the extremes on alignments. LG, LE, CG, CE only... as these are the alignments of chromatic dragons.

Both have 1 prestige class... one actually sadly negates a large part of the other (RDD is immune to para) but thats not much different than NC divine damage vs MA PM divine vulnerability. RDD doesnt get much for levels 11-29, assassin gets FAR more. Though again at level 30 the RDD would pull out on top (IMO) from dragon form negating the assassin sneak damage (and probably comes close to death immunity).

Classes in general, AO is less restrictive by 1. Though no Pally and no SD are pretty big hits, thats hard to compute numerically.

SL has 1 fewer cleric domain than AO. Though again no trickery in AO is a hit to their clerics, but thats hard to compare really (aside from looking at all the clerics who can take it and compare it to those who DID take it).

So other than alignment... its not TOO far off in the general department. Though I also think SL would be better compared to RK, as (far as I see it) thats the opposing faction for the AO/RK alliance.

SL <-> TC <-> RK
MA <-> NC <-> AO

Thats how I see the direct oppositing between sister factions, but I hope I dont need to break down every factional comparison hond. You should be capable of that on your own.

[Bargeld]

Korr, that is the WORST numeric comparison I have ever seen. You take absolutely NO real world combinations of class and race, nor does it take into consideration the real world usage of those races. Example: SL is better than AO because we can make Rock Gnome, Tinker Gnome, Duergar, Gold Dwarf, Shield Dwarf, and Lorekeeper Dwarf? I would wager to say that if you ran a statistical comparison of the factions that have those races available to them, across ALL player vaults and toons, the TOTAL usage of those ALL combined would equal .01% or less. You would need to remove RK from that comparison because they would skew the point of comparison which is the FREE choice of using those races due to their benefit over other races available. SL is superior in race choice because of that? Seriously.

Nor do you consider the race/class combo availability due to the racial/class/alignment considerations. The only time you touch on that at all is your final insult towards hond where you "hope you don't need to break that down for him". Yes you do need to break that down, because that breakdown is what matters, not just the stupid 'you have more races than them' argument. We are all capable of that breakdown, and we know that it invalidates your early statements, and by saying that as a reinforcment of your claims, you show your lack of valid analysis and appear foolish in the eyes of the public.

Here is a good example of your fallacy of comparison, not that this results in any 'X faction is better than Y faction', but an example that puts your 'numeric' analysis to the curb. Put any non-detecting, mixed cleric melee build you want into a closed ring with a fighter rogue ghost SD. Put no time limit on the fight. It doesn't matter what class/race/alignment or anything that that cleric has. With no time limit on that fight and equal playing skills, the SD will win. Why? Because that one feat negates any other part of the equation. As the DMs, Devs and players all agree, with such a wide combination of jobs, factions, races, classes, feats, skills, maps, tokens, blah blah, there is no way to generalize the outcomes of battles without considering the actual variables going into each battle as well as the skill behind the keyboards. That's why I can say the single statement about the outcome of that SD fight. Some of the variables can be known, others can be left unknown, and from the given variables, you can determine the outcome of that fight. But to do it, i had to specify a lot of things: Melee cleric. Non-detecting. Fight rogue ghost SD. No time limit. Closed arena. Equal playing skills. Some variables are necessary and others are not. It depends on the matchup on the battlefield at the time. And even then, when you are able to find ONE exception to the rule it doesn't break the overall generalization. Sure, a PM melee cleric might be able to be completely immune to the weak base damage of the SD. Or the SD might need to carry 10 million arrows or elemental weapon consumables to do it. Those are not things that skew the comparison. Things like +3 ab ac saves, that appy to EVERY comparison skew the generalizations. THAT is powerful and can make a large difference.

The point is that YOU can't bring anything valid to the discussion that actually furthers the discussion. All that YOU can do is throw your opinions and insult people. GTFO.

[Bargeld]

I'll add one more thing to the discussion... when the AO token first came out I didn't think much of it. I said "yeah, it's stonger than SL and any other factions', but thats no big deal". It took about 3 days of talking in chat with hond as a teammate for us to hash out enough things that he actually showed me the truth behind it's OP-ness. Once I gave up the "job tokens shouldn't matter" mentality and started applying it across the board in a bunch of different scenarios, that's when I realized there was truth behind his thinking. It's because of hond that I can appreciate the power of that token. But I didn't fight with him about his english or newbie-ness like a lot of people (not just Korr) are doing. This will greatly lengthen the process of understanding for those who do that, and that is why I am chiming in so much. I'm trying to expedite the understanding process and I have confidance that others WILL eventually understand what he is saying and open their minds to actually do the math. Once I started paying attention to the real world cases where it played a part in a battle's outcome, it started showing truth behind it. The token is a game changer and it shouldn't be.

As far as the rest of SL's failings... hond's newbieness DOES show here. He is saying the same things that many others in SL have said in the past. He wasn't here for that, and over time, we've just learned to deal with it. But he is new blood and has passion the same way we once did. This is his first time expressing those things, and I think it's fair for him to express those opinions because the louder the voice, the more it gets heard. If things change because there is another passionate SL player in the ranks, then that is awesome.

[Lokey]

Not all of us are math impaired, it's a bit tricky because of the rules involved.

Mirror match of +3 ab/ac v 1d8 unresistable damage:

Sucky SL: 60/55/50/45/60 ab.
OP AO: +3ac 63/58/53/42/63 ab.

Don't think there's any concealment advantage, etc...

So say they start at 75ac (well maybe with IE lol):
SL hits 1/20 (crit 1/400) 1/20 1/20 1/20 1/20 1/20 (crit 1/400)
AO hits 8/20 (crit 64/400) 3/20 (crit 9/400) 1/20 1/20 8/20 (crit 64/400)

If they're doing significant damage to each other, yah AO will win that case. (Obviously if both start at 82 ac, there's no difference.) If they're plinking each other, extra damage can come out on top. I'll leave analysis of the rest of the ac values and damage/resist/immune/soak as an exercise

Edit: don't do math in your head when you're old.

[Bargeld]

I'll just lay out what I sent to mining the other day, as far as the job token comparison.

SL job tokens offer no bonus to the strength of casters that we have.
Ao job token offers benefits for every toon.

Forget the 1v1, consider the 5v5.

5 toons with +3 ab/ac/save vs 3 toons with an extra d8 acid (this assuming your 2 casters have given your 3 melee ii already). The more casters we have, the more worse off we are. The more melee we have, the more worse off we are (as Lokey just showed).

[Lokey]

Thought I showed the opposite Also I'm trying to think of a job item that helps casters, maybe nc, but their casters get that on their spell list anyway.

High ac, good ab mirror match is where you have trouble with jobs being the only difference. But wait, you do get conceal so add that in lol. (20% less no blind fight, 4% less with blindfight, but in a party it's 50%/25%.) The point was to show where hond's example was flawed, by going from the corner case to real values you see in play.

Granted I'd be happy to let the argument stand because then CoT or pali sucks (bonus damage sucks) and caster druid is awesome because you can't counter that.

[mining]

Put any non-detecting, mixed cleric melee build you want into a closed ring with a fighter rogue ghost SD. Put no time limit on the fight. It doesn't matter what class/race/alignment or anything that that cleric has. With no time limit on that fight and equal playing skills, the SD will win. Why? Because that one feat negates any other part of the equation.

I'd actually put money on the cleric, provided magic domain of course. There's a lot of AoE stuff that'll kill the SD if it doesn't abuse kits/pots/etc.

[alasteir]

Bargeld,

I'll answer this one time, for the sake of clarity. And to all other forum users, I promise to only make this one post, regarding the subject.

I am not arguing with Hond, and I have certainly never slighted any of his posts, in regard to grammar. My response was to his incessant arguing, both on the forums and in game. I admire his enthusiasm for the game, and I agree, "another passionate SL player in the ranks" can only be a good thing.

My suggestions to Hond, both in game and on the forums, were intended to be constructive. In fact, I even mentioned my frustration with his behavior to a few of your veteran MASL players. The first experience I had with Hond in game, was watching him mock a few TNC players openly on the shout channel.....he had killed their non spotting raiding party with his corner sneaking stunner.... I could only take about ten minutes of that, before I logged a spotter and promptly killed him....his response was naturally that my toon was overpowered, and that was the only reason I could possibly win a fight.

The point is, most of my following interaction with Hond in game, has ran along the same line. He rants on the shout channel, regarding the overpowered nature of my job token, or class option, regardless if he was involved in the fight or not. I'm not really sure how that seems productive.
In regard to forum discussions, if he has an observation to share. Start an alternate thread....don't hijack an existing one. For example, when the discussion is regarding a potential solar buff, he shouldn't divert the thread with his observations. If he wants to discuss AO job perks....start a new thread titled "AO job perks", or something similar. This is much easier for forum users to follow.

And to summarize, this is my opinion. I am not speaking for any other TCNC players.

[mining]

Took a little bit of time ( ) but I maths'd it to death.

Here's the raw numbers:

Code: Select all

AC-AB	Difference
-5	-3.1
-4	-3.1
-3	-3.1
-2	-3.1
-1	-2.737
0	-2.35
1	-1.85
2	-1.28
3	-0.705
4	-0.02
5	0.17
6	0.6
7	1
8	1.4
9	2.1
10	3.1
11	5.7
12	9.7
13	14.433
14	22.28
14.5	28
15	35
15.5	45
16	57
16.5	73
17	95
17.5	90
18	84
18.5	78
19	70
19.5	60
20	48
20.5	33
21	13
21.5	-13
22	-46.6
22.5	-92
23	-154.4
23.5	-154.4
24	-154.4

AC-AB is the difference in AB and AC of the mirrored toon (i.e. both toons have 70 AB / 80 AC, AC-AB=10), such that the AO toon has +3 AB and +3 AC.
Difference is defined as:
Diff=(#Rounds for AO to kill SL - #Rounds for SL to kill AO)
i.e. -ve numbers are SL wins by -X rounds, +ve numbers are AO wins by X rounds.

Damage calc is available for download here.



That graph shows the data above.

It's pretty clear that AO wins in the centre - but SL wins in the extremes (as predicted). Most of the very long duration fights would be cut off by tokens expiring - so turning on IE will protect you solidly, and let you win because AC-AB goes from ~10-15 - ~20-25.

[Bargeld]

I'd actually put money on the cleric, provided magic domain of course. There's a lot of AoE stuff that'll kill the SD if it doesn't abuse kits/pots/etc.

Perhaps this touches on one of the problems. One of the variables I presented was a that it was a melee cleric. A melee cleric will not take magic domain. A melee cleric will not slot their dc 32 SoV, they will have AVA and UEF. In the real world, the SD will take some hits and be forced to instigate usage of the cleric's abilities until the cleric is out of stuff. The SD will wait for the buffs to disappear before he even made a move. If it was a TD type approach, the SD should even sit back after every bit of damage they take and wait to regen to full HP if neccessary. They will wait for the hour long buffs to wear off. Multiple times. In the end, if it was a matter of TD type win or lose, the patient SD will win. Again, a few exceptions does not break the generalization.

If the dm's/devs can't even listen to the players enough to agree on basic principles that the players state clearly, then anything the players suggest is a lost cause because the dms/devs take the 'we know best' approach and will do whatever they feel is appropriate based on their enterpretation. Mining's enterpretation in this example appears to have been 'Bargeld is trying to prove something and I have been challenged to poke a hole in his theory. I have my own idea of what he is stating because I have already read what he had to say.' The problem is that you didn't listen, you heard what you wanted to hear and responded in kind. If that is always the case, then I'll offer no input at all in the future and I will suggest to my cohorts that they do the same because it is lost on deaf ears.

And as far as the table/comparison above, you actually added that comment while I was typing all this... that's great 1v1 with mirror toons, but how many toons are actually mirrored melee toons in the real world application? Same race, feats, gear, books? It is a small example set of a specific situation. It's a robot comparison that doesn't apply to the concepts that we are trying to explain, nor does it even touch on the other SL specific deficiencies that have been brought up. It doesn't take into consideration the 5v5 scenario. It doesn't take into consideration the non-mirror battles. Mining, you even said that AO, even without the token, has a more powerful melee presence than SL. So to compare as you have above serves no purpose. This is a factional thing, not a 1v1 thing. Please, please listen to that.

edit: and what if they aren't 70/80 mirrors. How does that table play out on all the other combinations? What are the HP involved? Other race/class tokens?

[Bargeld]

I am not arguing with Hond, and I have certainly never slighted any of his posts, in regard to grammar. My response was to his incessant arguing, both on the forums and in game.
...
The first experience I had with Hond in game, was watching him mock a few TNC players openly on the shout channel.....he had killed their non spotting raiding party with his corner sneaking stunner.... I could only take about ten minutes of that, before I logged a spotter and promptly killed him....his response was naturally that my toon was overpowered, and that was the only reason I could possibly win a fight.

The point is, most of my following interaction with Hond in game, has ran along the same line. He rants on the shout channel, regarding the overpowered nature of my job token, or class option, regardless if he was involved in the fight or not. I'm not really sure how that seems productive.

A) We are evil
B) That's why he joined IO!

[Amoenotep]

blah blah blah op op blah blah op blah diaf blah blah maths maths maths blah blah gtfo blah blah devil angel.